Full Tilt, UB and Pokerstars Domains SEIZED by the FBI - Principals Indicted - (Merged/updated) - Page 46 - Poker Legislation

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Full Tilt, UB and Pokerstars Domains SEIZED by the FBI - Principals Indicted - (Merged/updated)

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04-17-2011 , 05:13 PM

#1126

MauiPunter

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,232

Quote:

Originally Posted by hard2tel

And then a million people said it was ******ed.

No, they said the OP was ******ed, and this was one of the responses to the OP. This response was well received. Skallgrim also commented that the part I quoted was on the money and he is deep in the thick of it.

Last edited by MauiPunter; 04-17-2011 at 05:19 PM.

04-17-2011 , 05:20 PM

#1127

davmcg

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,569

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

The UK has previously refused to extradite its resident site operators on gambling charges. Few countries will extradite for that reason IMHO.

And since the money-laundering charges are directly tied to the gambling charges, I don't think that will make much of a difference.

The bank fraud charges are more problematic, but it is still up to the foreign country (thankfully not the DOJ) to decide whether this SPECIFIC allegation of bank fraud is an extraditable offense.

Comment beyond that would have to be specific to the country from which extradition is sought.

Skallagrim

and it is also worth noting that the US has been adjudged as a renegade by the WTO over access to its gambling markets.

http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/..._e/ds285_e.htm

The Illegal Gambling Business Act is specifically cited as a barrier, so eg the EU may consider that legislation as having no standing.

04-17-2011 , 05:20 PM

#1128

Brokepoor

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by rupertslander;

Does the forum have any thoughts as to whether other nations will be willing to extradite Black Friday defendants to the U.S.

Obviously the gambling charges are a non-starter, but bank fraud is a crime of some sort everywhere so those charges might be problematic for the defendants.

Well, the DOJ is seeking to work with INTERPOL on this and not individual countries, so extradition may not be an issue. If INTERPOL arrests and takes possession of the ones indicted, then they can just do a "hand over." ITERPOL has 2 areas here that they are allowed to participate in the arrests of; money laundering and "computer crimes." since there is no computer crimes listed in the indictment and the money laundering charges are based on the "illegal gambling" charges actual being true law violations, INTERPOL may not even arrest these people. I also think that news that affects so many people, I think that the moment INTERPOL makes any arrests, everyone will know and report it.

04-17-2011 , 05:32 PM

#1129

_dave_

_Pooh_Bah_

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,147

Quote:

Originally Posted by midas69

Interesting idea regarding this. All these sites have some type of player rewards program. These reward programs all offer t-shirts, golf balls and jewelry. In a round-about way, it might be argued that they are indeed in that business and no fraud actually occurred.

you and I think alike Midas, lol. This was one my my first thoughts whem I heard "golf balls, jewelry". It's an "unusual" sales procedure for sure, but way couldn't PokerStars truthfully state they are indeed vendors of numerous stress stars and books? Hopefully none of their front "businesses" puported to sell stuff unavailable to FPP purchases - thos for PS specifically they must have concierge receipts for all manner of random items.

04-17-2011 , 05:39 PM

#1130

Hanrahan

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 155

Hey U can play online in Iraq and Afghanistan..lol

04-17-2011 , 05:40 PM

#1131

thechamps

stranger

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 4

Why is it that pros are being told to stay quiet,like Daniel Negreanu said on twitter that he was advised to not say anything

04-17-2011 , 05:45 PM

#1132

MauiPunter

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,232

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechamps

Why is it that pros are being told to stay quiet,like Daniel Negreanu said on twitter that he was advised to not say anything

Standard procedure.

04-17-2011 , 05:50 PM

#1133

Uglyowl

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 6,384

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechamps

Why is it that pros are being told to stay quiet,like Daniel Negreanu said on twitter that he was advised to not say anything

No benefit, unknown risks.

04-17-2011 , 05:53 PM

#1134

The1Messiah

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokepoor

That is also an invalid point, because that poster is just wrong. The UIGEA talks about "games subject to chance." Now it is true that poker is a game of skill, intelligence, patience, and well timed aggression, basically, it is a matter of making a proper decision each time you are posed with one to make, it is also true that even the correct decision does not pay off in every single instance, however, the hand by hand decisions do not make up the game of poker. Poker comes down to sessions or more importantly, months or even careers of making it a habit of correct decisions over and over again and that is what makes up a "winning average" over a "gambling session." That is why the poker players here and everywhere are asking for a definition of the law to be passed as law and not keep relying on an "interpretation" thereof. So as I said, the UIGEA DOES NOT say that poker is illegal.

Now one argument could be made that anyone who logs onto a poker site, makes a deposit, uses that money to play poker for a short amount of time, losses or wins with it, and goes away without choosing to acquire the skill necessary to make what they just did a skill game, was gambling. BUT, that player or that activity is not what the UIGEA was meant to stop. (see below)

One could also make the argument that poker anyway but live with real cards relies on computers, therefore, the card deal can never be "random" no matter how many hands the random number generator can store, no computer can store all possible hands and deal the hand fast enough for people to play comfortably. Also, being a computer, no rng can be random, but just has the appearance of being random, because nobody can store 10,000 possible hands in their head to predict what everybody has based on their own 2 cards, therefore, all Internet poker is gambling, because it is not truly based on making the correct decision, but based on what hands and combinations are pre-programmed into the rng and always has a predetermined winner for each hand. But again, I think this comes down to losing the least amount of money when you are going to lose a hand and making the most amount of money when you are going to win a hand. In essence, making the session or the career of poker a winning set and not basing it on each hand. And making money will eventually be down to making decisions based on how others play and not the cards themselves. So I think that puts internet poker on level playing field with live poker as a game of skill.

*The UIGEA was passed with a ports and security bill. Why? Because it was meant to stop the following activity... Someone in the US wants to get money to a terrorist organization in another country. Banks have those organizations on their radar. So the person and the organization both make an account on an online gambling or poker site. The person in the US makes the deposit. That person then transfers it to to the other account. The terrorist organization withdraws that money. THAT was the 'spirit' of the law. What did the sites then do in response? They made stipulations, like the one quoted by someone earlier in this thread by quoting pokerstars withdrawal rules, that if money is transferred into your account, you cannot withdrawal it, but must use it to play. That is why the sites were not ALL prosecuted when UIGEA passed and that is why they are not ALL in trouble now. Because they followed the spirit of the law and changed their policies to reflect that. Now in this case, there was CLEAR criminal intent to subvert other laws, but the civil parts of this, which are the $3B fines, and the false criminal additions of Internet gambling, IMO will not and should not hold up in this case until or unless the UIGEA is more well defined. And even then, they could appeal that the definition (ie.: the law) did not exist when they were charged and then will probably win the appeals.

Great post, I can't argue with most of what you said except I have a few more questions. Can US players withdraw their money from their income they have derived from Bodog and Carbon? If they can, then Bodog and Carbon wouldn't adhere to the "spirit of the law" as you have previously suggested, and therefore they would be open to similar charges as Pokerstars, no? If US players couldn't withdraw their money- nobody in the US would play... so where is the attraction in that? Why are there still US players then playing on these sites? What policies did these sites implement that Pokerstars didn't? I don't quite get it, despite your lengthy and insightful post

04-17-2011 , 06:08 PM

#1135

Brokepoor

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by _dave_

Quote:

This is an automated message sent from Full Tilt Poker.

Your Player ID: brokepoor
Date and Time: 20**-**-** 00:26:53
Transfer Number: ******** Payment Method: Quick Deposit Amount: $****.00 (USD)

Status: PROCESSING

Your funds deposit request has been received. Due to the high
volume of requests, processing of your deposit request may take
between 24 and 48 hours to complete.

For further assistance, please visit our website at:
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/payprocess.php
or contact cashier@fulltiltpoker.com.

Thank you for playing at Full Tilt Poker

Quote:

Dear ********* ***********,

Thank you for your recent deposit on Full Tilt Poker. Please read this email carefully and keep a copy for your records.

The details of your transaction are as follows:

Payment Method: Quick Deposit
Amount on your Statement: $****.00 (USD)
Description on Your Statement:
*** *********
Deposit Amount: $****.00 (USD)
Date and Time: 20**-**-** 00:26:55
Status: Approved

If you need to refer to this transaction again our Transfer Number is: ********

If you have any further queries please contact cashier@fulltiltpoker.com or simply reply to this email.

Thanks again, we look forward to seeing you online,

Sincerely,
Full Tilt Poker

-------------------------------------

Please note that Full Tilt Poker does not charge a fee for depositing with your credit card, however, your bank may charge a processing fee that is outside of our control.

You received this email because you are a player at Full Tilt Poker.

Emphesis added. Is there anything about this transaction that says anything about a purchace of an item? No, This is clearly a set of e-mails describing a deposit for playing.

Don't give ideas on how to subvert the law they violated with 'language' that tries to hide what they did. They are guilty of bank fraud, even if the other charges are trumped up.

They are not a subscription site like ClubWTP and others, they are a straight out poker site that charges money for tournament and sng buy-ins and ring table buy-ins, including rake amounts. Let them take the rap for what they did wrong and talk about the important parts that affect us as poker players and the future of our game and its future online.

04-17-2011 , 06:20 PM

#1136

FreeBird!

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 219

Quote:

Originally Posted by The1Messiah

Hi Poker lovers,

I have a question that seems to elude me and I would be very happy if someone could enlighten me with a good answer....

Why is it that Pokerstars and Fulltilt are portrayed as the villains of the internet gaming/gambling world, and sites such as Carbon Copy or Bodog get away with the same activities?

Last time I heard the UIGEA bill was imposed is that they deemed any gambling sites accepting deposits or withdrawals from its US customers to be a breach of Federal Law and therefore a crime.

Ok so Pokerstars and Fulltilt setup "shell companies" and made dubious arrangements with payment processors in order to carry on their "illegal activities". So they get caught and get charged accordingly.

But just because Bodog and Carbon Copy do not even attempt to hide their illegal activities, doesn't mean its not a breach of the UIGEA bill. These sites keep on accepting deposits and withdrawals from US customers. They should all be made illegal in the US and all be shutdown. Its got nothing to do whether there is a state law allowing US players to play or not, its got to do with the COMPANIES COMMITTING CRIMES AS WE SPEAK.

I don't get this, it must be because Pokerstars and Fulltilt are foreign (therefore not taxable and prohibited) and the other sites are american (therefore taxable and allowed)? Or am I missing something here...

Bodog, Merge, and Cake aren't being prosecuted because they aren't trying to be sanctioned as 'legal' under whatever upcoming regulation may be introduced in the US and therefore aren't good targets for a shakedown.

04-17-2011 , 06:21 PM

#1137

Brokepoor

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The1Messiah

Can US player (up until Friday at 2PM) withdrawal their money? Yes, because it wasn't transferred money, it was verifyable winnings. The poker sites allow you to actually 'transfer' money without playing. That is the money that must stay in the site, not verifyable winnings that cannot be tracked back to a set up collusionary loss.

What policies did they impliment that PS/FTP/AP/UB did not? None other than engaging in bank fraud. All the sites adhere to the spirit of the law, but some of them broke the law.

Last edited by Brokepoor; 04-17-2011 at 06:30 PM.

04-17-2011 , 06:43 PM

#1138

The1Messiah

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokepoor

Can US player (up until Friday at 2PM) withdrawal theri money? Yes, because it was transferred money, it was verifyable winnings. The poker sites allow you to actually 'transfer' money without playing. That is the money that must stay in the site, not verifyable winnings that cannot be tracked back to a set up collusionary loss.

What policies did they impliment that PS/FTP/AP/UB did not? None other than engaging in bank fraud. All the sites adhere to the spirit of the law, but some of them broke the law.

Ok, so you say all abided by the spirit of the law (all sites- no funding to terrorist organizatons

) but some broke the law (PS FT etc). Now the whole reason why PS and FT broke the law (committed banking fraud and money laundering) is because nearly all US banks rejected any transfer of monies between US citizens and these sites. Had this activity (the transfer of monies of online sites to its customers) not been made illegal this crime wouldn't have been committed, RIGHT? So why are US banks legally allowed to transfer money between its US citizens and Bodog, when PS and Fulltilt weren't allowed this privilege at an earlier time (ban on Neteller, no credit cards etc.)? Why does Bodog allow its customers to transfer monetary activities as of Friday 14:01 PM?

04-17-2011 , 06:44 PM

#1139

20thousand

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 38

I have just under 6k in pokerstars and about 300 bucks in FT. I havent withdrawn amidst strong recomendation to do so. If DoJ frooze the accounts whats the point? Wouldnt my money just be in limbo as opposed to setting untouched in my account? ..... and if Doj controled all info about these accounts wouldnt that just put me on another one of their lists? (damn nazis)

04-17-2011 , 06:50 PM

#1140

mdntokr

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 70

Looks like I can still withdraw funds on Pokerstars. Is there any reason why I should not do this immediately? I was planning on withdrawing anyway, but does anyone recommend I wait? I just have no idea . . . any help would be appreciated.

04-17-2011 , 07:03 PM

#1141

Brokepoor

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The1Messiah

Ok, so you say all abided by the spirit of the law (all sites- no funding to terrorist organizatons

Because it is not illegal. The banks stopped transferring monies to these companies for the same reason Party Poker stopped allowing US customers years ago... because they chose to, because of fear of FUTURE laws requiring them to. It is smarter for a bank to voluntarily stop when the threat is on the horizon than it is to give up their records later when subpoenaed later. Don't you think it is smarter to not wait for the fight to be start, but to bow out gracefully when it is announced and before the challenge arises? Some other banks now face all their records being subpoenaed and reviewed by the federal government and tons of lawyers over this case that really has nothing to do with them other than that they didn't bow out before the fight began.

04-17-2011 , 07:08 PM

#1142

The1Messiah

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeBird!

Now that is hypocrisy- but that was the sort of answer I was looking for. The biggest sites are attacked but the smaller are allowed to live.

My theory is that they want to ban these sites until online regulation is in place in the US in order for American companies to benefit from it at a later stage. They don't want their US citizens playing on foreign sites is the bottom line- I think. They would like to wait for American companies to have a foothold in this lucrative market before regulating online poker- and in the meantime banning as many as they can. Its goes against basic free trade laws- I think the World Bank would have something to say about this

04-17-2011 , 07:16 PM

#1143

oldbookguy

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,025

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhsice

If you find a dollar on the street and put it in your pocket you are required to report it as "income" by federal law. If you have a garage sale you are required to report any money you make. Of course 99% of people don't and the feds don't go after them. But if the feds decide to go after you, they will look for a chicken **** violation, if they can't get you for something else. As a wise assistant United States Attorney once told me, "Don't **** with the IRS". About the only exception is gifts, which in general you are limited to a set amount from each person. I believe the current cap is $10,000 or less from one individual in a year, is not taxable.

Actually, here the IRS give you a break, you can have 2 yard sales and pay no taxes, if selling old household items.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...202939,00.html

obg

04-17-2011 , 07:17 PM

#1144

mdntokr

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 70

Also, not sure this is the place for it or not, but I have a two $2500 checks lying around from Pokerstars. What's the consensus, should I try to deposit them tomorrow, or would you guys now wait? I'm not sure if the money processors have been shut down or not. Thanks for any advice.

04-17-2011 , 07:23 PM

#1145

jonmon101

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 124

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdntokr

Might as well give it a try...

04-17-2011 , 07:26 PM

#1146

ganstaman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 11,123

Quote:

Originally Posted by The1Messiah

In 2007, the US has already had a ruling go against us for violating some laws through the WTO by blocking online gambling services. Antigua and Barbuda got paid $21million and somehow all were happy.

04-17-2011 , 07:28 PM

#1147

fyita

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by rupertslander

The DOJ is not known for trusting other countries' justice systems in that way, but what would happen to the defendants if they did?

We're talking about improper paperwork with the banks so far as a European court would be concerned - they won't give a rat's ass about the gambling. A fine, maybe.

04-17-2011 , 07:33 PM

#1148

Mastadon31

stranger

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 7

When did this start I was at work all day so I come home to play a couple of sngs for fun and cant log on. It said, We are Sorry but, due to goverment regulations playing real money tournements is not allowed in your area.
FML

04-17-2011 , 07:33 PM

#1149

The1Messiah

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokepoor

"The banks stopped transferring monies to these companies for the same reason Party Poker stopped allowing US customers years ago".

Ok so banks stopped transferring money to PS and FT for the fear of pending future laws but they have absolutely no fear for the future laws when they make the EXACT SAME monetary transactions with Bodog. They gladly CHOOSE to accept Bodogs money but CHOOSE not to for PS or FT. I am a stubborn mule, I know

, but I smell there is something deeply hypocritical about all this.

They have cracked them down for the pure and simple reason, that the US is WAY BEHIND the online poker gaming market (a very lucrative one) so they will find any excuse to impose criminal charges and formulate laws against these sites to stifle them as much as possible when they are trying to make economic gains from their citizens. They are doing this because they want eventually the AMERICAN companies to get a nice foothold in the market once online poker is regulated. America just want a piece of the action.... they still haven't paid the Antigua gaming operators their rightful compensation after the WTO ruling that America have wrongly blocked them from performing their business activities and at the same time violating their own free trade agreements