They defrauded the players by involving them in the fraud. When you sent $200 to PokerStars to deposit for use in online poker, it was run through the bank as paying for golf balls or jewelry, never disclosing that to the player. Just like Full Tilt, they were reckless and dishonest with player money and lied to the player about the accounting methods involved in handling their money.

They just had stricter regulations than Full Tilt, allowing Full Tilt to get away with more egregious excesses.

There is a fine line between saying that Full Tilt treated players way worse (true), and saying that PokerStars was some kind of beacon of integrity toward players (false).

What Stars did enabled US players to deposit and play, and Stars to make money. FTP appears to be run exclusively to make money, at the expense of players.

I don't think anyone - on this forum or elsewhere - is claiming Stars is whiter than white. But every step they have taken since BF seems to have shown respect to the customers that made them rich.

The guys at FTP seem to basically treat their business as a personal petty cash fund, with total disregard for the players who made them rich (at least in the last 2 years or so).

Sure... FTP may not be as bad as we make out, and Stars may not be as virtuous. But I don't see the line as being thin at all... one guy is paying players, running games. hiring staff, getting new licences (including a new one TODAY) despite facing down the barrell of a serious DOJ indictment. The other guy is lying to players repeatedly, dumping 500 staff, and paying nobody.

Perhaps you could share with us what more you think Stars could have done?

Banks and the DOJ were illegally denying payments made by the players to sites. In turn the sites misrepresented what the payments were for. No player deposited thinking they were getting golf balls. Nothing a player did regarding poker sites was ever illegal as far as payments. It's up for debate if the sites ever did anything wrong either since poker is a game of skill, not gambling.

And I guess that point is about to be debated in a court of law...

Thanks for cliffs in OP saved me lots of time

Only for 23% of Pokerstars customers (US)

They took a small business gamble. I haven't heard that Pokerstars have paid any fine / been found guilty of any charges yet. PS still the biggest poker site in the world. A profitable gamble so far then.

Probably from Pokerstars Corporate Blog maybe?

The provisions are actually better than that.

From the minute your account is credited with $$ to play, Stars have to credit the 'players funds' account. No waiting for the funds to actually hit Stars bank account and then making the transfer. So, in the event of funds wired by player being intercepted before hitting Stars, the players account is still whole. In reality, Stars always ensure the 'players fund' account has an extra day or two average players deposits in account.

I'm sure the PPA and players will ensure such regulation is standard throughout US (the real version of 'segregated accounts' is 'players funds segregated from the assets of the business')

Then you need to campaign the US government to abolish Californian LLC's (which are private companies i.e. the owners don't want or don't have any legal obligation to provide you with answers). FTP isn't / wasn't McDonalds you know; entirely different company structure

That's really the key difference between the two companies, PS took a risk reward gamble that profits would be greater than seizures by operating in the US post UIGEA, and players took a gamble playing on FT post UIGEA as FT never risked anything because they kept paying themselves 10M per month regardless of how much 'player money' was seized.

Ouch, I never thought of it like that.....oh man that hurts....I took a gambol on UIGEA....didn't build that into my ev calcs.

Strange business decision. How many $10m's does someone really need? Just 15 of those, the US is repaid and FTP continues to print money for them (see pokerstars)

perhaps you should verify your account and then you would get paid.

Are you seriously for real?

I know PS regulations required them to segregate accounts because you can actually go online and read the regulations they are subject to.

I assume that PS player funds were segregated because a) they were required to do so and b) because they paid everyone back in such a timely fashion. So either they kept player funds separate or they had enough liquid capital to cover all US player deposits.

I state PS defrauded the banks because the indictments against them, which anyone can read, charges them with such (although I don't recall the exact charges or legal terms at this time).

And I've said repeatedly that I DON'T have inside sources, and I have also never stated or implied that I have any inside track on the current negotiations. I do occasionally receive PMs from posters who claim to have sources who pass along information, but I've never once posted anything about this information because I'm always told not to do so. So I don't.

I'm not sure I've ever seen someone fail at reading comprehension as much as you. Congratulations, I guess.

Finally, PS did not "involve players" in bank fraud, since it was never illegal for players to send money to online poker sites, nor to accept money from those sites. It was illegal for BANKS to process transactions. So unless a bank can also be a player, no players were involved in bank fraud because of any of the poker sites miscoding of transactions. So once again, there's zero evidence (that I've seen) that PS "defrauded players like FTP", which was the original contention.

Or that they were reckless with player funds. I would think being reckless with client's money would be spending it on company stuff, or paying it out in dividends, or loaning it to pros. Them using illegal banking maneuvers to get us our money doesn't constitute recklessness with our money, at least not in my opinion.

Please, if someone has some evidence that PS defrauded players, we're all ears.

I look forward to smashin' 90 man sngs with you again Kev...lol. I too hope I can play on that software again, provided they segregate funds this time around.

But FYI, even if you denounce your citizenship in the USA, you have to pay the U.S. govt taxes for ten years after the denouncement of said citizenship. So, moving alone won't keep you from paying U.S. taxes...either the embassy will handle you, or when you come back to the USA for any reason you'll be arrested.

Obviously this doesn't aplly if you plan on paying the USA and just living abroad in order to play. Uruguay is my chosen destination (if you're somewhat proficient in Spanish). Also taxes no foreign based income, had similar laws and crime rates to USA, similar rights. No drug war, that's a plus. Good spot, all in all. Due to expenses (the plane tickets, moving duties, lawyer fees for emigration, etc.) it can be cheaper, however, to just go to Canada.

Before relocation look up expat (expatriates) websites and research the matter.

Good luck.

I'm pretty sure you're just writing to argue and are not at all interested in answers, but just in case...

You should know that I, and I'm pretty sure most of the poker community, credit people like SGT, as being the only link to information that I have had this whole time. I don't know the number, but they had to have dedicated the majority of their hours over the last 8 months to helping us find justice in this giant mess.

Don't know why you would feel the need to call anyone out like that, but I will tell you with almost certainty that 99.99% of the people who are following this would disagree with you very much.

Your tone is misplaced, and you sound like douche to me.

First: thanks to people like Noah, DF, SGT RJ and even Ifrah who do their best to create some sense out of a complicated situation without that much concrete info being available most of the time. Of course nobody is perfect and everybody has their own agenda but attacking any of them in such "trolling ways" as some posters here is plainly ridiculous IMO.

Second: somehow related - as the greatest obstacle towards a (re-)launch as in the original shareholders vote seems to have been done wouldn´t it be about time for some official statement, press release or some other form of communication from GBT / FTP2?

After all, the players and the commuity are all (potential) customers, and everybody is still very "anti-serviced" in this regard... I mean, what are these people thinking? That we shall recieve an e-mail in our inboxes at, for discussions´s sake, the 20th of january 2012 without any prior information which states that FTP2 will reopen in the next 48 hrs. and that everybody (ROW-wise) is supposed to be as "happy and perfect" as before BF? The real world and real peope dont´t work that way...

I think at this point they've decided just not to say anything until it's a done deal.

Is that what I would have done, or what everyone waiting would like? No, but I do think it's understandable. There are a lot of very frustrated/impatient people right now, and the last thing the new owners need is to create an impression that they are slow (by posting deadlines that are off by a day or a week or whatever) or that they are dishonest (by releasing something that later ends up falling through for whatever reason).

Once the entire deal is wrapped up and the actual transfer of assets begins, and GBT starts getting the new FTP up and running, I think then we can start looking for (and judging them) on the type and caliber of their communication. Right now they still aren't the owner, so what do they say to the players? "Sorry you guys got hosed, now we get to buy this company for 1/4 of what it would have sold for 1 year ago?"

Unfortunately I think these piece meal updates and rumors are just how it's going to be until all is said and done. The good news is that, right now, all the signs and rumors point to this actually getting done.

only semi-respected.
poor u

I don't think the shareholders vote on the FTP/GBT agreement was the greatest obstacle to a re-launch. The greatest obstacle will be the negotiation of the settlement agreement between FTP and the DoJ, which will probably also need a shareholder vote.

We have an announcement of an FTP/GBT agreement. We ad an announcement ofthe GBT/DoJ agreement. We already know what Tapie has said he intends to do - relaunch FTP outside of the US. What more can he say at this time? The details of player repayment probably depend at least in part on the terms of settlement between FTP and the DoJ. The timing of the re-opening definitely depends on the timing of the settlement. Since it relates to a pending court case, they aren't going to anounce anything about that until the settlement is done.

Does the shareholder decision extend to more than 'forfeit the company to DoJ or have the DoJ take the company anyway' bearing in mind 'ROW market is getting smaller and FTP value is going down daily'?

I'm sure the DoJ would also have some form of standard company forfeiture documents too being as though this isn't the first time for them.

Surely there's no point GBT/FTP agreeing a deal that is based on a deal agreed between GBT/DoJ if the directors intend to have lengthy negotiations in the FTP/DoJ agreement. I bet the already done shareholder vote included a provision to just sign the DoJ standard forfeiture agreement.

What are the big and lengthy points that still require negotiation? What do the FTP directors have to negotiate with? How do the shareholders get a better return on their shares in any future deal or DoJ forfeiture?

Kinda "sign here or we'll take it through the courts, by which time it will be worth sweet fa anyway. Oh, and btw we'll take out all those class actions suits and US player liability too, and your shareholders can have a slice of the new GBT"

I want some genuine unbiased opinions.

In the the other thread I suggested it was "possible" that GBT could impose penalties on us, the ROW players for wanting imediate withdrawal of our balances.

The wording from the Subject Poker aricle was this.

"In return, GBT also agreed to repay or otherwise make whole non-US players, who are owed over $150 million"

What do people consider "making whole" to mean as it sounds a little ambiguous?

If players had to roll over their balances, restricted to withdrawing X amount per month or offered reduced balances in return for imediate withdrawal....

Do people consider that being "made whole"?

As a ROW player who is owed money by FTP I am a bit nervous that I may be forced into playing at a site I dont want to just to get my money back.

I fully accept that nothing has been stated that any such penalties would be put in place but surely it would be totally shocking if GBT would allow unrestricted withdrawals as soon as they opened.

Surely most people with significant balances would vastly reduce their exposure based purely on risk/reward.

Why is this so far fetched to think this?

I would be happy to be totally wrong as I can mash the withdrawal button along with the rest of you.

For GBT not to give full refunds would be a very bad move. To have withdraw limits is very bad for a new site. I would think they may offer bonuses for not withdrawing. How would they deal with new players depositing money, who win and want to withdraw? I don t think there is a way to seperate the money or put limits on it.

I happen to think that
- Some players will have accounts repaid in full and closed (pro's and shareholders)
- Some will have NO ability to cashout or play yet (Belgians, Danish, Italians, French)
- The rest will have a cap on cashouts and / or a sick bonus to clear.

I 100% agree with you. It wouldn't make sense........

The problem is will the new FTP be run by a lot of the same people who made bad decisions at the old FTP?

How many bad moves have they made?

I assume they are going to use most of the workforce/infrastructure thats left from the old FTP.
There are numerous claims by former employees that a lot of the most talented employees have left.

I hope this all works out but it just looks like GBT would need a tremendous amount of cash to get this off the ground.

Interesting that you mention the "Pros"

So far virtually every "Pro" that has been mentioned in public has actually owed FTP money! Based on FTPs "credit" scheme.

So far we have.......

Subject Poker claimed (and FTP)

Ivey and Benyamine owed multiple millions.

Tom Dwan claims he owes a large amount but wont reveal how much (claims its less than 1.2 million)
PA owes FTP money and did a bizarre transfer of his entire balance just before FTP shut down....... and the players he transfered the money too wont pay him because they dont think the money was "real"........

We dont even know how much the other "Pros" owe?

If Tapie was going to let RoW players cash out their full bankrolls immediately upon relaunch he would have said so in exactly those words.