Exactly so (although I could nit-pic bec I think there are still possible causes of action). Heavy on the IF, imo. And, as I mentioned above, I'm thinking that this is the reason things are at a standstill. I picked Allen Cunningham out of the bunch and asked why he would be willing to divest all ownership interest w/o it being the end of it for him. I can't know his exact position culpability-wise or what his lawyer thinks his exposure is but if it's below a certain level I see no reason to sign if I were him w/o that meaning over and done.

Are things at a standstill? Might sound sarcastic but I mean it honestly and straightfoward, are things at a standstill? Or are they moving slowly? Or are they moving quickly and it just doesn't feel like it because our lives (some of us) depend so heavily on the monies we are owed by FTP?

It's just my feeling, as I also mentioned above. Something just doesn't feel right. FTP was reportedly in negotiations w/ more than one suitor before GBT appeared. They know what they need and don't have to determine that all over again. If somebody shows up w/ what they need they should snap the offer up. If this is what 'snapping the offer up' looks like color me amazed. Just doesn't feel right. Nothing from FTP, nothing from the DOJ, nothing from GBT. I'd at least expect a tidbit out of GBT, they want to re-open ASAP, but no, nothing.

But I'd like nothing more than to open 2p2 tomorrow to good news for everybody. I'd like to have what I had on FT but it's not that important to me. I have friends who have significant money on FT and I'd very much like to see them made whole along w/ everybody else who was harmed.

Ifrah has said on many occasions that FTP is not interrsted in anything but full player repayment, and it seems to be not negotiable, for the obvious reasons you've previously mentioned. For ROW, this language is vague, and GBT can construe repayment in ways that appear to be full, but actually not.

I think it's obvious that FTP has made this very clear to both the DOJ and GBT in negotiations. It's an all or nothing proposition.

No one is willing to talk because I suspect that a major hurdle will either be cleared or not soon. It's likely that the silence is because a deal with GBT is close and no one wants to **** it up before it is official official. I would suspect that if the silence is because the deal is failing that we would've heard such rumors by now.

Although you didn't discuss it directly, I've always been concerned with the math. What's clear is that US liabilities lie in the neighborhood of 160 million. If GBT is pitching in 40, and relinguishing another 40 that, presumably, is in FTP's*** name, where the hell is the other 80 going to come from if full player repayment is a pre-requisite to negotiations?

The only thing I can come up with is that either FTP has more money in its coffers than were lead to believe, or if all of the personal bank accounts of Bitar et al total wayyyy higher than 80 million, whereby they will forfeit it all for the sake of player repayment.

I don't see how releasing any details of the negotiation progress could potentially kill the deal. It's not like they have a new product they're trying to keep secret from the public.

I'm reading this as you partioning U.S. and ROW players which I don't think should be done. ROW is half of what is owed from what I've read itt and I don't see why any ROW player couldn't sign up w/ the CA suits even if they have to assign their interest to an American if that's the only way to be included.

The thing's a mess, a damn mess. The businessman in me is horrified. It's the worst sort of trainwreck and should never have happened.

Has Jim McManu's article been linked itt yet? I haven't noticed so here it is along w/ a nasty quote:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7333093/uigea-you

"We all respect Phil as a player," one Stars rep schadenfreudistically told me, "but was it ever a good idea to make him, Bitar, and Howard your bankers?"

I don't know if things are at a standstill. Far too early to conlude that IMO.

Any shareholder at risk of taking some form of legal hit is going to want to negotiate for some form of immunity, reduced punisment or whatever. Just about the only thing they have to give in return is cooperation on a deal, so they will give that up reluctantly.

But what about innocent shareholders who faces no legal repercussions? They did nothing wrong. Why should they have to walk away with nothing, while the players get everything back? I think one aspect of the negotiations will be what share of FTP2 innocent FTP1 shareholders will get.

And what about the shareholders who owed money to FTP? How will their debt to FTP be resolved, if it was going to be paid out of FTP1's future earnings?

Finally, I think it highly unlikely that any deal will be structured such that GBT inherits any form of liability for FTP1's past actions.

I think all of the shareholders face legal repurcussions esp if the corporate veil gets pierced.

Client lists et al. are assets. They would normally be verified as part of due diligence. No reason for an agreement between GBT and FTP; DOJ would have FTP confirm their accuracy, etc. to validate the asset transfer.

Ownership alone does not make them guilty of anything, nor liable for anything.

What is so "magical" is that if DOJ does its job correctly, and it almost certainly will, the assets will "emerge" (i.e. be washed) free of any claims, creditor or otherwise. That allows a purchaser from DOJ to know that they are starting fresh with clean assets, similar to a properly done foreclosure.

They've recieved stolen money. ITT I question the 'stolen' part and got slapped down damn hard for saying it.

The CA's lawyers worst nightmare. Why no seeking an injunction to prevent it?

ETA: How do the assets get washed? I'd understand if the DOJ seized them having won a forfeiture case in court but a voluntary transfer?

Obviously FTP BOD wants a deal that accounts for full player repayment from corporate assets or sale of equity to Tapie as that would get them off the hook for the fraud charges, let's not pretend they are demanding full player repayment for our benefit.

If they turn down this deal and nobody gets repaid, they want to be able to say that they turned it down because it didn't guarantee player repayment, but I hope no one is gullible enough to believe that.

I think this is wrong two ways. First of all, it is not an offense to receive stolen money. It is an offence to receive stolen goods, but in most jurisdictions only if you have cause to believe they are stolen.

More importantly, they didn't receive stolen money. Effectively, they received a gift from the Directors, paid out of the Directors' personal funds. The Directors are deemed to have the misappropriated money. When the Directors make an improper dividend payment, the Directors are liable for it, not the shareholders who received it. Only if the shareholders were complicit in the payment (for instance, by knowing it was improper), are the shareholders liable for it. If the DoJ had sufficient reason to believe shareholders were complicit in receiving these improper payments, I would have expected to see the shareholders included in the amended complaint.

You can't automatically get an injunction just because you don't like an outcome. The class actions are essentially actions by general creditors to collect debt. In a forfeiture case, the state has a higher claim than a general creditor.

Whether FTP agrees to the forfeiture or not, it is still a forfeiture. With forfeiture, clear title passes to the state. If the state then sells the asset, the purchaser obtains clear title.

There are a few steps they may have to go through, e.g. notice to the world and known creditors, possibly having a court determine that DOJ's fines and penalties have priority over unsecured creditors, that secured creditors will have to be paid from the proceeds of the sale (and may be forced to take a haircut, to be determined later by the court) and that the terms and conditions of the sale are fair and reasonable. I am not saying all or any of this will necessarily occur but some or all of it may. This is how it can be similar to a foreclosure or a bankruptcy.

Maybe pokernews or subjectpoker will give an update as to what they are hearing this week if no news from the parties.

If the DOJ gets a court order then I can understand passing clear title. W/0 it, the DOJ's say-so alone, I don't see how. But I'm not going to start looking up Federal Law so I'll leave it at 'I don't see how.' Also I think ppl itt are under the assumption that FTP/shareholders are defenseless and have to do what they are told which they don't.

@DTM: Try holding onto what the goverment itself has called money obtained by theft. IDK where you got the 'gift' idea from, divident payments are not gifts from the BOD and they are most certainly NOT paid out of the BOD's personal funds.

I didn't say that an injunction would be granted but if the CA lawyers see their case slipping away esp if they can cast doubt on the suredness of repayment of players then it's worth a shot, imo. We haven't heard from that lawyer fellow who started the CA lawsuit lately. I really don't wonder why, tbh, bec the case was iffy from the start collection-wise, imo, and the involvement of the DOJ is the main reason.

Go raibh maith agat! The surname of my "english teacher" in school was Gail, she studied literature in Trinity College...

No announced announcements of / about FTP on Google news no older than 24h which should be available somewhere today indirectly according to Mr. Ifrah...

yeah today, but what year?

The DOJ has some actions pending; they can probably bring a motion in one of them to determine the appropriateness of the forfeiture et al and force all the interested parties to try their claims, or bring their objections, to the forfeiture et al in one forum.

Nothing and no one is defenseless and they can try to use that fact to get some guarantees of no criminal prosecution or lighter sentences; however, their leverage is not great. They may be closer to the old saw about, "You don't have to do what they tell you to do but they can make you wish like hell you did," than they realize.

since they are in europe the news should be out by the morning.

1. http://www.pokerq4.com/full-tilt-reopens-site-tables

fake news I guess?

2. FTP(the company not based in USA) and ROW players are under jurisdiction of DoJ? How?! I can understand they can stop FTP in USA but how are they stopping it from working here in Europe?!

[QUOTE=AreOut;30360033]1. http://www.pokerq4.com/full-tilt-reopens-site-tables

fake news I guess?

Most definitly fake - but somehow funny, as a lot of the other "news" on this site.

sorry stopped reading through this mess months ago but there should be (awesome)news today?