Well, I'm probably one person that would play less there if I don't get a refund.

I'm not outraged or anything, but going down to the Borgata to play a tourney is usually a close decision for me. Parx is getting their series fired up, the Sands as well, NJ online is going, and other non poker stuff competes as well.

I played and I don't want a refund becuz I don't feel I deserve one. I don't blame Borgata.

you're a fool if you really believe that

I've defended borgata and don't think they have any legal responsibility to refund players. But their profits off one or two series would cover it especially if its not a full refund.

People have to travel to get to Borgata. They can't do nothing IMO it would be a bad business move. Long run they make more money doing some sort of refund.

then I'm a fool. I don't see how it's Borgata's fault that someone cheated. It happens in every casino, the cheaters just usually don't get caught. Could Borgata have had more/better people working? sure. Would that have stopped the cheaters? no
They will do something, just not both.

I am not a legal expert nor did I intend to represent myself as one.

But I would speculate that a player could fairly easily make the case in a court of law that they were defrauded out of their buy-in provided the casino can't prove the scope of the cheating. (e.g. If the casino can't determine when the chips were introduced, then they cannot reasonably make a case that certain players were affected while others were not.)

I like the chances of the case holding up in court given that the player can easily show that the tournament was sufficiently compromised to require a cancellation - or said differently - the casino has already admitted that the tournament was badly compromised.

Hint: to recover for fraud you have to sue the party that defrauded you

Hint II: the Borgata isn't that party here

Fair... But surely they have a non-zero liability? I don't know - I find it all fascinating.

Hint III: burden of proof is not on the defendant.

Just my opinion but i think they are going to pay out the prizepool and do something pretty big for the other players. Borgata makes good money off these series. They will take a small hit to keep business in the future.

I don't feel borgata had any legal liability either. They players got defrauded by the cheater for 6k. Which adds up to 1.33 per entry. So sue him for that. On the other hand borgata could probably sue the cheater for millions (if he has it). I think the borgata is a victim of the crime in this case.

Hint 4: woulda, coulda, shoulda arguments are negligence not fraud.

Hint 5: a negligence claim requires the plaintiff prove the negligence was a proximate cause of his damages.

the final 27 are getting 28th place money the remaining pp will go toward refunds

"As your attorney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine...get the hell out of AC for at least 48 hours." -Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Not for everybody but sound advice for people waiting on the legal issues.

lol, probably not worth a lawyer's or plaintiff's time to sue a busto MTT player who cheated in a $600 MTT. plus he'd be in jail and will probably have to pay some big fines.

assuming borgata was negligent and you have records of your table draws i think it's pretty easy to show this. nothing suggests that borg was negligent though. seems like they took all the precautions that a reasonable casino would.

both the plaintiff and the defendant have to be foreseeable and players do sue casinos so that part is foreseeable. i don't think a casino is a foreseeable defendant vs. a player cheating other players (just as they aren't a foreseeable defendant if you drive your car off the road on the way to AC). i guess it is possible . there is also the issue of player negligence in not noticing the fake chips; borg could point to it being immediately noticed on twitter (though this is also evidence against them...but it would only come up if the case survives summary judgement and no way that happens). if the players were negligent they may not have any claim at all in NJ. if NJ is a more comparative negligence regime, their claim would be reduced. i'm not sure a successful negligence claim has ever been made against a casino before (even for say, dealer incompetence at a pit game that results in players being underpaid). also, any tort claim may be preempted by state gaming regulations. so ya this case is a total non-starter imo.

I'd at least hope they would get 27th place money.

This thread just keeps on giving... About 50 pages behind at this point, and really interested in knowing if there was a ring of cheaters involved, which I suspect there was.

Introducing fake chips into a tournament is common place and risky to say the least. Trying to "chip dump" the fake chips seems to go against the idea of eventually having all the chips and winning 1st place. Therefore, to successfully pull of this scam, ideally all the fakes would need to be taken out of circulation. Once again, taking the risk of getting caught in the act of removing the counterfeit chips systematically off the table.

And which law school did you graduate from??

Of course this could NEVER happen at Parx, the Sands, or Online.

well tell me how it can happen online

And the likelihood is less at Parx and Sands. But like I said, I'm not outraged. And I have other choices other than poker. It's just one thing that is pushing my close decision away from taking time away from work to travel down to the Borgata to play a poker tournament. I'm way less likely to do that.

But if you ever introduce counterfeit chips to give yourself (and everyone else) a freeroll let me know. I'm in for that one lol...it's that easy, right?

The players didn't get defrauded out of 6k if they pay out the remaining prize pool. They potentially got defrauded out of 372k. I was directly knocked out by a guy that had his own chips from his backpack as we were already in the money. He only made such calls against me that ended up busting me as he was trying to get me off the table after instantly exposing the chips to the table. To say he defrauded certain players over others I feel is intellectually dishonest.

you sit down at the 2014 WSOP Main Event. One player has snuck 150k in fake chips onto your starting table so he has 180k in chips, compared to the other 30k starting stacks. Please estimate for me your damages in USD.

Now what if the player does this on the table next to yours. Please estimate for me your damages in USD.

Did the WSOP cancel the event in your hypothetical? That seems like a material difference.

How can a casino collect a profit on an event that was compromised and cancelled? At minimum the damages are equal to or greater than the tournament fee.

^^^^^^. I respond by not answering the simple direct questions and post other unrelated questions.

I answered his question and posed another question which seems to be related.

I think the extent to which the casino may or may not be liable is still up for discussion - so I don't know why you insist on insulting my every post.