Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* - Page 115 - Poker News

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Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT*

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02-07-2014 , 12:20 PM

#2851

jjjou812

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 6,811

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheetsworld

This is the reality:

Borgata F ed up. The whole tournament was a mess right from the outset. The ratio of incompetent dealers to acceptable dealers was extremely high, and I am the last one to ever notice, believe me. I feel bad for the good dealers there, as there were many, as there were way too many who were clueless.

The process for allowing re-entries was a complete nightmare as well, but in my experience there I noticed and encountered many acts of disrespect from players to other players and to staff which went unaddressed, making it a completely miserable experience for a great number of players.

For example, late in day 1c, I was at a table with a complete psycho who went off the deep end. He lost a big coin flip and then verbally assaulted the dealer, and banged on the table and threw cards and chips for 30 minutes afterwards. He called the floor and demanded a dealer switch, and became almost dangerous when this was refused. The entire table was stunned and I for one, was genuinely in fear for my safety. I was this close to just abandoning my chips and leaving. What did Borgata floor people do? Nothing. They actually did switch the dealer, (lol), but did nothing to this guy. No police, no security, not even a penalty hahah. They let him continue his tantrums and intimidation, which made for a frightening final 2 hours of the day. They just had way too many players per staff member and just could not keep pace.

After busting 1a I played the 120 ko, and after I put a bad beat on someone with a less than a premium hand, the guy got right in my face and said "you f ing (fgt)". Just like that....and stared me down for 10 minutes, and Borgata dealers and floor people did nothing. Nice.

I expect the most upscale establishment in AC to care about its reputation and make for a pleasant experience for its customers, more so than other places. I was completely shocked that Borgata of all places would let this happen. I like Tab alot, but I attempted to call him the day after, and messaged him on twitter to discuss these things, but I got no return call from either him or his shift manager Vinny. It seems as though they had other things to address other than what I was calling about, obviously, but still.

It thus comes as no surprise to me that this chipgate occured. The whole place was chaos, and I am sorry, but if they are going to attempt to run a tournament with zillions of players, they need to be better prepared. I know that they would just love to have all these players, but sometimes you bite off more than you can chew, and this was an example of that. They had far too few effective staff members relative to the number of players, and to say they were not at fault in allowing something like this to happen is pretty ridiculous imo. I know Tab and Borgata must be embarrassed as all hell that this happened, and will want corporate to do the right thing, although what that is, is very messy.

Whatever the resolution, I really hope that Borgata learns something from this, as do all other casinos. I do hope they have to pay a stiff penalty, be it in refunds to players or whatever, just on sheer principle. The whole thing was, and remains, a giant mess.

And my eggs were runny, my maid did not make my bed until 4 pm, the pool was not open and my taxi driver smelled bad.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 12:32 PM

#2852

J_Phil

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 262

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheetsworld

I used to teach the multistate bar exam for a living, and the NY and NJ sections as well and knew all of the "rules of law" backwards and forward. One thing I always stressed though, was that the way the law works in the real world is not the way it works in fact patterns or outlines.

Yes the "burden of proof" is on the plaintiff, but , for openers, that burden in a civil case is only to prove its case by a proponderance of the evidence, that is, that it is simply more likely than not that Borgata was negligent, breached a contract with the players, whatever... This is not tough, in general.

Moreover, while the burden of proof is on the plaintiff here, the reality of life is that when the plaintiff is an individual or a group of individuals, and the defendant is an uber deeppocket corporation who prays on the weakness of tourists and gamblers etc, believe me the Borgata has the burden to show it did enough to stop this, and I really believe that any lawyer worth 2$ an hour could, with MAYBE 1 or 2 depositions, paint borgata into a corner and get them to settle pretty fast. Whether this be on a negligence theory, a breach of contract theory, or god knows what else, Borgata F ed up, and this is really not a case they want to defend, trust me.

This is, in part, why I think Borgata will be paying someone something lol. Not sure who or what.

Thank you for more eloquently making the point I was trying to.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 12:35 PM

#2853

J_Phil

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 262

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

Good, then explain to jphil how a criminal act of another may act as a defense and a legal bar for recovery if it is determined to be an intervening cause of loss rather than an additional proximate cause of loss. I hated that part of the bar exam.

Maybe you can find jphil an attorney for two bucks that is willing to take two depositions in a $560.00 dollar claim. Economies of scale, nuisance settlements, deep pocket defendant, barriers of recovery for out of state players, etc., are certainly issues here but do not create a viable legal claim

You've made your point.

For the record - I have no skin in the game and didn't play in the event. I'm just some guy who is fascinated by this unique case.

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02-07-2014 , 12:44 PM

#2854

riverph7

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by J_Phil

You've made your point.

For the record - I have no skin in the game and didn't play in the event. I'm just some guy who is fascinated by this unique case.

I think Posters who are attacking you or other similar posters also did not play the tourney or are part of the remaining 27!!

Quote

02-07-2014 , 01:02 PM

#2855

therealsaltydog

banned

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 404

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheetsworld

This is the reality:

Borgata F ed up.

For example, late in day 1c, I was at a table with a complete psycho who went off the deep end. He lost a big coin flip and then verbally assaulted the dealer, and banged on the table and threw cards and chips for 30 minutes afterwards. He called the floor and demanded a dealer switch, and became almost dangerous when this was refused. The entire table was stunned and I for one, was genuinely in fear for my safety. I was this close to just abandoning my chips and leaving. What did Borgata floor people do? Nothing. They actually did switch the dealer, (lol), but did nothing to this guy. No police, no security, nokt even a penalty hahah. They let him continue his tantrums and intimidation, which made for a frightening final 2 hours of the day. They just had way too many players per staff member and just could not keep pace.

After busting 1a I played the 120 ko, and after I put a bad beat on so me one with a less than a premium hand, the guy got right in my face and said "you f ing (fgt)". Just like that....and stared me down for 10 minutes, and Borgata dealers and floor people did nothing.

This says way more about you than it does the Borgata (IMO)

Why would anyone sit at a table and let the above actions occur as described ? Kinda Ridiculous

Quote

02-07-2014 , 01:13 PM

#2856

roller000

newbie

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 31

imagine 4800 players going to smallclaims court lol

Quote

02-07-2014 , 01:34 PM

#2857

ligastar

ToP 1o0 pAsS cAtChErS

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 33,806

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealsaltydog

This says way more about you than it does the Borgata (IMO)

Why would anyone sit at a table and let the above actions occur as described ? Kinda Ridiculous

Quote

02-07-2014 , 01:42 PM

#2858

jjjou812

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 6,811

Quote:

Originally Posted by riverph7

I think Posters who are attacking you or other similar posters also did not play the tourney or are part of the remaining 27!!

No, but I would represent the remaining 27 depending on Borgata's proposed resolution of the issue because they were the only ones damaged by the cancellation of the tournament. And their claims are more worthy than a day 1 a bust out.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 01:51 PM

#2859

riverph7

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

By saying "I would represent the remaining 27" you are saying you are an attorney ? What branch of law you practice ? R u a member of NJ Bar ?

Thx

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02-07-2014 , 02:01 PM

#2860

FRYTWO

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 493

Quote

02-07-2014 , 02:34 PM

#2861

pipes

banned

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,340

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

And my eggs were runny, my maid did not make my bed until 4 pm, the pool was not open and my taxi driver smelled bad.

this is a fail as his examples other than chipgate can be associated with the issue of having too few effective Borgata people relative to the amount of players

Quote

02-07-2014 , 02:46 PM

#2862

Jetlag

banned

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 160

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdadio48

it feels like crap, im one of the 27 left and all myself and the others have received is one email saying that "chipgate" is still under investigation..... your right, what next? whats our recourse? how long should one wait before seeking legal counsel?

I would have immediately at least got legal advice

Quote

02-07-2014 , 03:04 PM

#2863

jjjou812

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 6,811

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipes

this is a fail as his examples other than chipgate can be associated with the issue of having too few effective Borgata people relative to the amount of players

The kitchen manager should have checked my eggs, they did not hire enough maids, a casino makes millions and have enough money to heat the pool in winter weather and they should have quality controls in place for third party vendors.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 03:21 PM

#2864

Drewphish2

banned

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 750

so what happened at the end here? everyone got a refund so what about the other players left? Did those cash got a refund as well?

Quote

02-07-2014 , 03:47 PM

#2865

Allworld23

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

Who is your only client? A-Rod?

Quote

02-07-2014 , 04:05 PM

#2866

MrAdvantage

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevmode

It truly is sad that is type of cheating is still going on in mtts. How can anyone be proud to be a poker pro when this type of crap goes on? This is one of the major issues I have with playing the game of poker. Poker players don't contribute anything to society and people from outside of the poker community always hear about all the scams and terrible things that happen in poker. This type of stuff makes poker look bad and makes me uncomfortable as a poker player. There are already a ton of people who are anti gambling and this type of thing puts it over the edge. Hard to talk to friends and family about poker seriously when there are so many horrible people in the game of poker.

NEWSFLASH naive donkey: there is cheating, corruption, and scamming in EVERY form of business , not just poker. Politics , insurance , medical , construction etc all have 1000x more problems than poker . If u are uncomfortable , QUIT. The poker economy will survive without your annual 8 k donation

Quote

02-07-2014 , 04:36 PM

#2867

mrdadio48

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetlag

I would have immediately at least got legal advice

i emailed the borgata last night and they got right back to me, i was impressed by that. again they told me the investigation is continuing, but it now appears that there could be someone or more who may still be in or may have been eliminated, in short they are out to get all who were involved. that is all i can say. they will eventually make good on this im sure.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 04:42 PM

#2868

pipes

banned

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,340

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

ok, I'll give you an F+

Quote

02-07-2014 , 04:45 PM

#2869

ZeckoRiver

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,590

Ridiculous that there is still no resolution on this.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 05:15 PM

#2870

jjjou812

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 6,811

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipes

ok, I'll give you an F+

Negligence, inadequate staffing, money, negligent supervision - all suggested as reasons to pay the bustouts.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 05:53 PM

#2871

sheetsworld

veteran

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,811

Lusardi was at my table.

My dad asked me at lunch today how I would have played differently had I known that he had extra chips in his pocket etc? (assuming he did etc etc)

I never really thought about that, but considering that Chris's sole motivation would have been to just stick around long enough to keep adding chips, I would probably have 3/4/5 bet him/ played as aggressively as possible to put him all in. Being allin for him would be a collossal disaster, ESPECIALLY if the flight had passed the point where he could re-enter.

I think.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 06:36 PM

#2872

cicakman

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 9,229

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheetsworld

you could have just asked him to borrow some

Quote

02-07-2014 , 07:08 PM

#2873

layemdown

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,500

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Aces 518

how long do you people think it takes for 9 players to count their chips, the dealer to verify all 9, the player to fill out a slip, the dealer to sign it, etc?

To long, that's how long. And the vig would be 40% to cover staff expenses. Obviously advice from people who don't play large MTT

Quote

02-07-2014 , 07:19 PM

#2874

layemdown

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,500

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealsaltydog

This says way more about you than it does the Borgata (IMO)

Why would anyone sit at a table and let the above actions occur as described ? Kinda Ridiculous

I disagree. I respect the Borgata, but it's they who have an obligation to run the tournament and make sure the atmosphere is safe, fair and professional. Players should not get involved with other players who are inappropriate. That's entirely the casino's responsibility. If it these things happened and the floor did not respond, shame on them. With that said, I wasn't there. It's hard to imagine a dealer/floor team would fail to react to blatant violations of behavioral standards.

Quote

02-07-2014 , 08:16 PM

#2875

pipes

banned

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,340

All Day 1b should be refunded, period

Regarding the potential refunds of Day 1a and Day1c players, I think it depends on how clear the investigation is after the fact. And how much they divulge.

If they come back with some specifics and detail how Lusardi introduced all of his chips on that day, then I don't think day1a of day1c should get refunds. (I'm assuming Lusardi did not play on day 1a)

But if it's clear they don't know how 200 fake chips got in or don't divulge any details then I think everyone should get refunds.

Quote

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