no one is adding 50 chips during a table move

How about the dealer of breaking table signs slip with chip count, and you need to announce your stack size and turn in slip to new table dealer? Counts would be quick once racked, and allows players to police new chip stacks.

Also adds small value to other players knowing what stack size just sat down since a few hands can be played while removing from racks.

how long do you people think it takes for 9 players to count their chips, the dealer to verify all 9, the player to fill out a slip, the dealer to sign it, etc?

Can't be serious

You are all beyond stupid. This thread at least makes me happy knowing all of you play at borgata.

so mega tilting how after any event, people get so bound and determined to prevent that ONE SAME EXACT THING from ever happening again, regardless of how rare it is, and regardless of how much it will cost, etc.

same thing happened in Oklahoma last spring, giant F5 tornado hits a school in session that has no safe room, a dozen or so kids got killed. AWFUL tragedy. Now though, they are trying to mandate that every school in the state be retro-fitted with safe rooms at a cost of millions and millions and millions of dollars. How many kids lives could be saved with that money applied otherwise? Instead, we are going to flush that cash to prepare for something that literally may never happen again.

Any search engine should be able to find pictures if the right key words are used:

Borgata counterfeit 5k chips

That was easy!

Most poker players can barely handle EV calcs, let alone the general population, not surprising.

How is this fair to the player sitting down? Does the player who was just moved to this table get the same courtesy to know the stack size of each of his new opponents? If those at the table don't need to have their stacks counted down and announced that's an value to them.

haha agreed this thread has become a ****show. no surprise, despite all the absurd speculations and crazy ideas thrown around, there is no resolution.

if i was in the final 27 i would be incredibly vocal and angry that one guy was able to ruin a deep run of mine that could potentially change my life and none of all of the employees and cameras of a multi million dollar industry could not figure it out until after the fact and is now giving me no information on what the hell is going on!!!!

It looks obvious to me what has to happen in all tournaments. We all have to play naked. Imagine the reads. Just watch out for pooky, he's a tweeker.

The wsop ladies event would have the largest crowd in the history of poker. LOL

But only briefly so, until the rails realize what they were up against.

If you think speaking knowledgeably on a subject is being on a high horse, then yes, black aces is on a high horse. You should stop riding your miniature shetland pony around here....

More arrests please.

I know Lusardi played and was chip leader of day 1B.

Any one who played day 1A or 1C remember him playing that day ?

This is the reality:

Borgata F ed up. The whole tournament was a mess right from the outset. The ratio of incompetent dealers to acceptable dealers was extremely high, and I am the last one to ever notice, believe me. I feel bad for the good dealers there, as there were many, as there were way too many who were clueless.

The process for allowing re-entries was a complete nightmare as well, but in my experience there I noticed and encountered many acts of disrespect from players to other players and to staff which went unaddressed, making it a completely miserable experience for a great number of players.

For example, late in day 1c, I was at a table with a complete psycho who went off the deep end. He lost a big coin flip and then verbally assaulted the dealer, and banged on the table and threw cards and chips for 30 minutes afterwards. He called the floor and demanded a dealer switch, and became almost dangerous when this was refused. The entire table was stunned and I for one, was genuinely in fear for my safety. I was this close to just abandoning my chips and leaving. What did Borgata floor people do? Nothing. They actually did switch the dealer, (lol), but did nothing to this guy. No police, no security, not even a penalty hahah. They let him continue his tantrums and intimidation, which made for a frightening final 2 hours of the day. They just had way too many players per staff member and just could not keep pace.

After busting 1a I played the 120 ko, and after I put a bad beat on someone with a less than a premium hand, the guy got right in my face and said "you f ing (fgt)". Just like that....and stared me down for 10 minutes, and Borgata dealers and floor people did nothing. Nice.

I expect the most upscale establishment in AC to care about its reputation and make for a pleasant experience for its customers, more so than other places. I was completely shocked that Borgata of all places would let this happen. I like Tab alot, but I attempted to call him the day after, and messaged him on twitter to discuss these things, but I got no return call from either him or his shift manager Vinny. It seems as though they had other things to address other than what I was calling about, obviously, but still.

It thus comes as no surprise to me that this chipgate occured. The whole place was chaos, and I am sorry, but if they are going to attempt to run a tournament with zillions of players, they need to be better prepared. I know that they would just love to have all these players, but sometimes you bite off more than you can chew, and this was an example of that. They had far too few effective staff members relative to the number of players, and to say they were not at fault in allowing something like this to happen is pretty ridiculous imo. I know Tab and Borgata must be embarrassed as all hell that this happened, and will want corporate to do the right thing, although what that is, is very messy.

Whatever the resolution, I really hope that Borgata learns something from this, as do all other casinos. I do hope they have to pay a stiff penalty, be it in refunds to players or whatever, just on sheer principle. The whole thing was, and remains, a giant mess.

The burden of proof WILL shift to the Borgata because a player can easily prove that the tournament's integrity was compromised (i.e. it was cancelled by the NJGC). Given what we know about the appearance of the chips, the conduct of the dealers, etc. it shouldn't be too difficult to prove negligence.

Thus a player can fairly easily make the case that they were defrauded out of a buy-in + rake as a result of the casino's negligence unless the casino can prove that only a certain portion of players were affected.

I actually have a very solid grasp of how lawsuits work in the U.S. and I find it laughable that you and BA continue to assert certainty where there frankly cannot possibly be any.

How many other casinos saw players introduce counterfeit chips into their tournaments? Tell me again why their methods and conduct are relevant to this case.

Your knowledge is not even close to the level that you assert, which is why I find your condescension so appalling. At least have an air tight argument if you're going to start criticizing other people's intelligence.

Well it is laughable that you say you understand how lawsuits work and in the same breath say the burden of proof will shift to the Borgata. NOPE.

PS my job is General Counsel for a state agency that provides mandatory continuing legal education for judges. MY JOB IS TEACHING JUDGES THE LAW. Pretty sure I'm qualified to speak on this.

Jjjou812 also clearly knows what he's talking about. You should listen.

Well written. 100% the truth. Please add the fact that it took 1 hour and 45 minutes to have a waitress sent to our table. Even after I told 5 different bosses that we needed a waitress. It was annoying to keep getting up and walking over to the floor person.

Your first diatribe has absolutely nothing to do with Chipgate. Nothing other then it explains why you are so emotionally invested in revenge against the Borgata and evidencing that you played a day for which there is no proof, to date,that any cheating occurred


Clearly you don't understand the burden of proof, shifting of the burden or that you cannot be negligently "de-frauded" under any available legal theory. I can assert certainty on the potential coas, procedures and defenses. But it is a complete waste of time to try to educate someone who simply uses buzzwords and jargon and makes up facts along the way. Believe what you you wish. You are completely wrong.

I just hope others recognize it rather than believe your inane arguments and develop false hope of recovery based upon your "legal standpoint." The borgata faces potential liability but the "known facts" do not create a current viable legal theory of recovery for the bustout players.

Why don't you take your case to an attorney this weekend, pay a consult and share with us what you are told. Or show us an agreement that any attorney will represent you.

I used to teach the multistate bar exam for a living, and the NY and NJ sections as well and knew all of the "rules of law" backwards and forward. One thing I always stressed though, was that the way the law works in the real world is not the way it works in fact patterns or outlines.

Yes the "burden of proof" is on the plaintiff, but , for openers, that burden in a civil case is only to prove its case by a proponderance of the evidence, that is, that it is simply more likely than not that Borgata was negligent, breached a contract with the players, whatever... This is not tough, in general.

Moreover, while the burden of proof is on the plaintiff here, the reality of life is that when the plaintiff is an individual or a group of individuals, and the defendant is an uber deeppocket corporation who prays on the weakness of tourists and gamblers etc, believe me the Borgata has the burden to show it did enough to stop this, and I really believe that any lawyer worth 2$ an hour could, with MAYBE 1 or 2 depositions, paint borgata into a corner and get them to settle pretty fast. Whether this be on a negligence theory, a breach of contract theory, or god knows what else, Borgata F ed up, and this is really not a case they want to defend, trust me.

This is, in part, why I think Borgata will be paying someone something lol. Not sure who or what.

JPhil, By analogy, you are stopped at an intersection and a guy blows through the red light and comes within inches of running you over, without actually hitting you, leaving you completely uninjured. No contact, nothing. You believe you have a claim "because he almost killed me" by such bad driving. Other driver even gets a ticket at the scene.

Was the other driver negligent in the operation of his vehicle? Yes. Do you have a viable negligence claim? No. I hope others recognize the distinction.

Good, then explain to jphil how a criminal act of another may act as a defense and a legal bar for recovery if it is determined to be an intervening cause of loss rather than an additional proximate cause of loss. I hated that part of the bar exam.

Maybe you can find jphil an attorney for two bucks that is willing to take two depositions in a $560.00 dollar claim. Economies of scale, nuisance settlements, deep pocket defendant, barriers of recovery for out of state players, etc., are certainly issues here but do not create a viable legal claim