I am not sure he is referring to the procurement of vaccines but instead all the money spent on programs during Covid.

If you ask the WHO we do not have the best vaccination program as we mixed doses with no scientific evidence. Not saying it was the incorrect move...

Reality is we will have 70 % of CDN's fully vaccinated in the next 15-30 days. I was a skeptic that thought we would not have our first dose by now. To that the Trudeau government should be praised

Uh there is quite a bit of scientific evidence in support of mixing vaccines. Not every regulator has decided to go that route, but definitely not “no scientific evidence”.

From a purely (cost/# of vaccinations), I'm sure we're at the upper limit, but as you said: wht's the alternative? It's good to have to worry about things like vaccine passports, instead of hospitals having to cancel surgeries.

Cite or ban

I am sorry but Justin saying it will work is not to be considered scientific proof.

Based on our infection rates it looks like it is/was a good decision.

Sure. Here is a recent nature a article summarizing for instance: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01805-2.

Why on earth did you believe there was exactly zero scientific evidence?

JFC. Seriously??

Not sure if you noticed yet, but he does not seem to like Trudeau...

I am joking as that is UKEs go to move

I consider scientific Evidence were you have run the tests on folks with two vaccines. Yes some of that evidence is starting to surface but when the decision was made there was next to none

My fav Troll

I think you missed the last comment

Is it? I've said "cite or ban" maybe a few times, but these are in cases where someone is saying something rather egregious and I believe each time I've said it the person has utterly failed to actually back up their claims.

Indeed, there already were studies in europe mixing AZ and Pfizer and showing high level of immune response. In an ideal world we might have wished for more of a robust set of clinical trials, but hardly "next to none". Also worth mentioning that "trials" aren't the only type of evidence. For instance with Pfizer and Moderna, my understading is you basically don't even need trials because of being mechanistically identical. This is the type of thing where you don't really need armchair doctors posting on internet forums to evaluate this, and leave it to NACI and the like.

With the UK experience I hope Canada pulls back on opening the US border and allowing travelers in from India and other 'at risk' countries.

I have a good friend who traveled to see his mom in India back in February and has not been able to get back to Canada. 3 prior booked flights canceled due to Cdn gov't restrictions. He said he has been given the all clear to book an august return and he now has his flight and he says the pent up demand is pretty huge. He expects a ton of people coming back to Canada from India.

I know he is double vax'd and i suspect/hope the Cdn gov't will require them do a covid test (they should just have a nurse on board and admin them on the planes) and then ask for voluntary 3 day quarantine until results are in.

I hope we don't just go wide open, in these areas. We don't want even asymptomatic spread of the Indian variant to take off just as we are heading into fall/winter here. We need to get thru this fall/winter season and then next Spring open everything wide when nature helps supress the seriousness as well.

Just announced though the US government is not opening there border

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...edgdhp&pc=U531

Here's a fun (and in most ways disturbing) read:

https://torontolife.com/city/weve-go...uarantine-era/

So, if the article's author is to be believed, there is no set process in place for making sure people don't just get into a waiting car/uber/taxi instead of quarantining. From the article:

---

...One passenger had just arrived on an international flight, and when I asked to see his passport, he became agitated.

“Why?” he shot back.

“This is my job,” I replied.

“What you are doing is against the law,” he said. He refused to take out his passport and didn’t let me check his travel companion’s passport, either. They walked briskly out the automatic double doors.

The security guards aren’t allowed to touch the passengers, so they couldn’t do much. “I can’t hold their hands!” one said. So I sprinted 30 metres to the police officers stationed at Toronto Public Health. “We’ve got a runner!” I said. I described what they looked like. By the time we got to the exit doors, they were gone, vanished. I felt like a failure.

---

The people who put this process into place are the same people that we're counting on to safely re-open our borders with the world. I really hope the vaccination effort gets the last 10% or whatever is needed to ensure herd immunity before we open up, because I think we can all easily see a formula coming that would result in another wave.

Inlaws have already called planning their visit. Goddamn Trudeau.

I am a little torn as I think the Indian Variant ripping thru the UK now will end up being the best thing for them heading into the tougher winter season. They will end up with a high percent vax'd and a high percent with natural immunity after the cull does it thing amongst mostly the unvax'd.

Once Canada hits it voluntarily vax'd limit it would be preferable, imo for the Indian variant to rip thru, if you believe such a rip thru is imminent regardless, as i do.

Perhaps it won't be a big issue in Canada if we get about 80% of the populace double vax'd as the remaining 20% might not be able to stress the system that much regardless??

Regarding Fauci's statement comparing the US and Canada and basically saying that the reason for Canada's superior vaccination status is largely political. Which is I think is obviously true, but it highlights something rather understated that I think has been a consistent strength in Canadian politics: the top leaders have stayed largely out of it. At the federal level, it isn't Trudeau making most of the covid announcements and health advisories, it is almost always the appropriate ministers or Tam or whatever. And the same has largely been true at the provincial level, with the possible exception of Ford who has tried to be in the limelight with his folkys anger about covid. In BC, for instance, you almost never see Horgan, but Henry and Dix are the ones that run the show. It would have been so easy for Trudeau and Horgan to be out there virtue signalling and trying to soak up every political point they can for a job well done, but part of doing that job well has been not politicizing it and they did a great job of it. It isn't just conservative politicans in Canada are better than the US on this issue (although they are), it is that liberal/NDP politicians havn't been so pushy as to make a conservative backlash as in the US.

On the border, also worth noting how the conventional wisdom the last month or two was it was Canada who was dragging their feet, that there was all this pressure on Canada to do a tandem border opening but we were concerned about the bad american situation. The federal government kept saying that talks were progressing and they would follow the science, again very understated, but ultimately it is Canada that opened first and America that dragged its feet. That entire narrative of criticism against Trudeau was just wrong.

I get the sentiment, but the issue is that not all peaks where covid "rips through" are equal. Every day the immunity levels build, slowly for uptake in first doses, but quite rapidly for second doses, and worth noting that immunity takes a while after both doses to reach its peak. So the point here is that you basically always want the peak to be later in time, as the increased immunity means it will be a smaller peak. In the UK, vaccination uptake is roughly linear right now, so if they could have delayed their peak by a month or two, it would probably have been a small fraction of the size. I suppose in the edge case where immunization is making exactly zero progress then trying to time the peak with a specific season might be relevant, but I think this is largely wrong.

I tend to disagree on some of what you say. I think CDN's trust their healthcare system more as well the USA shortcomings are more from both administrations. I can remember when the VP said that she may not trust a Trump vaccine as well Biden refuses to give credit to Trump's administration on the vaccine. On the other side Trump could do a PSA telling folks to get the vaccine.
Many blame Fox hosts like Tucker and Hannity but what do they have 3 million viewers. 100 million Americans have not got the shot. Many are African American and Latino. We also have a smaller population of those cultures here in Canada as well

Though I do agree with you on the border. If anyone has an excuse not to open the border it is Trudeau as cases on the rise in the USA. Though remember in order to travel to Canada you still need a test before and be double vaccinated.

Geez

1st Google search shows that Biden DID credit Trump for Warp Speed in December

Biden also praised President Donald Trump for his administration's efforts in helping accelerate the process of bringing Covid-19 vaccines to Americans.

"I think the administration deserves some credit getting this off the ground with Operation Warp Speed," Biden said.

Sadly Trump showed why anyone should be skeptical of a Trump vaccine so I don't think you can hold that against the VP.

I would want more confirmation beyond the usual or typical apparatus of gov't (CDC, NIH) if only the Trump admin was pushing a new Vaccine or Therapeutic.

Trust in science is not blind and Trump showed how much pressure he could and would bring to bear to just bypass any and all usual safeguards to get something to market that he could hope ended up saving lives and turning his (then) election fortunes.

Trump is the ultimate Results Based Thinker, who believe you just shove all in and hope you are right, and if not, 'oh well'.

He also felt he would gain benefit if it worked the more he bulldozed the normal scientific process. He positioned it as him being smarter than the scientists and being the man to get things done. Even if you assume a miracle cure came about under a Trump admin, bulldozing the process is not correct simply because it works when you administer it.

Oh of course the same cure would have happened under a Hilary Administration. I just do not think the reason more CDN's are vaccinated is because of UKE's reasoning

Alberta is at 75% first and 59% second . Canada as a whole will have trouble getting past 80% I think better than the USA . Here in Alberta weather its Notley or Kenney the results would be the same.

I would give Trump some credit for Warp Speed and getting the vaccines as quick as we did.

That is not really my point. My point is that like the VP I would not trust any Trump Vaccine (his admin) without seeing wide spread acceptance outside of that.

Trump showed a willingness and ability to steam roll the science and precautions to take his gambles in the hopes of being the pandemic hero to bolster his election chances.

Some tried to paint that as 'anti-science' but it is really just anti-Trump, in knowing what he is capable of doing of over riding the science.

This is what she said, which is completely and utterly reasonable.
However, it points to the larger tensions where it has become political in the the US. A huge portion of this is just due to trump's personal failings. But as soon as something becomes a wedge issue (like a democrat criticism trump) it becomes political.

This is why I rather like how little Canadian politicians have tried to insert themselves politically into the conversation. Lozen and I debated this a lot earlier, how if Trudeau had tried to holier-than-thou impose his will against Alberta, even if Trudeau was 100% correct that those measures were good and Alberta 100% wrong, the political wedge that those optics create would result in just so much pushback.

What in the actual **** are you talking about? Are you really trying to equate Biden "refus[ing] to give credit to Trump's administration on the vaccine" with the Trump Covid shitshow? Seriously?? Your "both sidesing" hits really ridiculous levels sometimes.

As for Carlson and Hannity, yes they are part of the problem. 3 million viewers plus all the people who are stupid enough to be influenced by them, and they just add in to the noise for those who are unsure what to do and think that there are lots of important people speaking against the vaccines. Not sure what your point is about "African American and Latino" in this context.

There is no question about the Trump **** Show. But to blame Trump and Fox or political division for the reason 100 million Americans have chosen not to take the vaccine is just nuts. There is so much blame to go around. Lets just look at one element of the US population that has not low vaccination rates African Americans. I am not sure an old white guy telling them to get a vaccine will work. You need athletes and singers to do the PSA announcements. The biggest athlete in sports Lebron James saying he will not say if he will get the vaccine doesn't help.
Look at the NFL and the pushback they are getting from players just on the fact on forfeiting games if unvaccinated players force a cancellation you may forfeit a game.

Sadly in the USA cases are dramatically rising to 50,000 a day. I am glad to see GOP politicians though very late pushing folks to get the vaccine as the Delta variant is scarier than the previous versions