One sec, you support the bill, or you support the transphobic moron's comments? Assuming the latter:

I mean to be clear, this guy is a liar: Nobody banned counselling! Not even close! They banned a specific, extremely harmful, extremely discredited, widely condemned form of fake "counselling" called "conversion therapy". If you are ignorant about how harmful this is, I really encourage you to do some research on this.

Even Peter MacKay, who is usually the last person to most parties, has figured it out:

I am against Conversion Therapy of course its religious garbage but I am for a kid waiting till their 18 to get surgery or Many of the medications.

I support all the LGQBT2S and any other letter they want to claim I do not support Bill C16 I have the right to say Kaitlin Jenner is a biological male but will treat her with respect and call her by the name she identifies

I also have come to the conclusion
Uke votes Liberal
Shifty has always voted conservative
Montralcorp votes The Bloc

Ok. Well the bill being referenced has nothing to do with the age when transgender people can get gender confirming surgery. As for age, well there is an extensive approval process that varies a bit province to province as far as I can see, and for instance the canadian psychological association recommends, along many other things, that this only occur for over 18. I mean maybe there is some psychologists somewhere that are defying their own industry recommendations, I can't really see much in googling if this is actually a real or significant thing, but either way it is a medical professional issue not a federal bill issue.

One of the things we know is that transgender teenagers can suffer an enormous amount, and we should be doing a lot more to try and support them. I can not imagine the trauma that late teens might be going through as they try to take on the idea of take hormone therapy or leading to surgery presumably when they turn of age, and I dunno, I really don't think this is a place where your ****ing hot takes on the internet should be delving into those really personal decisions.

This phrasing seems pretty dismissive.

Bill C16 doesn't take away your right to say Kaitlin Jenner is a biological male. What C16 primarily aims to do is, just as you can't engage in hate speech on the basis of someone's race or gender, you can't engage in hate speech on the basis of someone's sexual orientation or gender identity. That seems pretty basic, and an overwhelming majority of Canadians agree. But no court in Canada has come within a mile of interpretting those hate speech clauses as being trigger by someone saying someone is biologically male alone. Not even close.

Great, although if you really feel compelled to point out that she is biologically male all the time, then you might not really be treating her with respect. You're still allowed - via C16 - to say that, but you'd probably be rightly called transphobic if you kept busting that point out.


I have voted liberal, NDP, and green in federal elections and provincial elections. I have registered to vote in leadership conventions for both the NDP and Liberals.

No not dismissive at all . Stole a comedians joke. Though I really do not understand the 2S for aboriginals.

You are correct about kids going through this must be very hard.

Wasnt Jordan Peterson charged for that exact reason?

I disagree on the fact that if I say that I am transphobic

As well I have voted PC, Liberal, NDP and Green and I just might add WEXIT

No.

Peterson certainly made a lot of noise about C-16, but none of it was at all accurate according to actual legal professionals and he was certainly never charged for anything under it. The only thing it might violate is Ontario's Human Rights Code but that was extended to include protections for gender identity 5 years before Peterson got all his publicity from criticising C-16 (and as far as I can tell has never actually been used to censure this sort of speech either pre or post C-16).

And refusing to acknowledge someone's gender is transphobic in the same way that saying being gay is a choice is homophobic.

Nah, I was Liberal forever. Then Bitcoin got me into Libertarian, then parenthood brought me full circle to conservative.

I am just quoting Science. I already said if they want me to treat them as the gender they choose and address them by the name they choose I will. Though what I will not do is deny science. Everyone is born a male or female.

Stephen Harper drove me to being Liberal and Trudeau sent me right back. Though I am liking this Wexit thing but chances are will vote Conservative

The science is very clear that sex and gender are not the same thing. Your last sentence is especially egregious for someone claiming to be following science since it leaves out literally millions of people who are born intersex.

To be more specific about the science there have been plenty of studies that have found significant physiological differences between cis and trans people, and more notably similarities between cisgender and transgender people of the same gender. If you want to be more informed on the science then this wiki page is a good starting point and has a lot of links to studies that identify both specific gene sequences and brain structures that have strong correlations with gender identity.

Edit: If you want to continue the discussion we should probably move it to the transgender thread which might be somewhat bearable now JV isn't around.

So ****ing what. Let's ignore every case where people are not biologically 100% male or female. What does you tell us this accomplish? Who is saying wrong you are dismissing? What value does this perspective bring that someone else isn't already aware of?

It's a little bit like someone who responds with "All lives matter" in response to someone saying "Black lives matter". Nobody is ****ing denying that all lives matter. It's that it is important to highlight the specific struggles of black people facing racism that black lives matter is mentioned. Nobody needs to be told all lives matter.

The same issue is true with trans people. No trans advocate doesn't understand about chromosomes and being born with a penis. You don't have to tell them that! The point is that trans people face horrible discrimination because of their gender identity and people denying and oppressing that. Transphobes for decades have used "you're biologically male or female" as a tool to hurt and discriminate. So you steadfastly standing up for capital S Science to tell all of us people are born male or female is ****ing pointless

RCMP confirms N.S. gunman illegally acquired all 5 guns used during mass shooting
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ne-4-1.5588433

Not surprised. Now let's hear why they didn't do anything a year before when they were told he had illegal guns.

Yeah and like 99.9% of the population doesn't need to hear black lives matter. But here we are having it screamed in our faces and being used for an argument on a totally unrelated subject.

Exactly. A great comparison. Nobody should want to appear as uninformed and unresistant to systemic racism as Shifty. And as terrible a look as this comment is on Shifty, so too is trying to fly that "people are born as male or female" flag is.

LOL socialist are so predictable, I questioned your motives of using black lives matters as an argument fo trans rights. Right away your first post back is that I'm "unresistant to systematic racism". You're a joke.

Shifty you don't actually know what socialist or capitalist actually is. They're just buzzwords for you. Fyi you are NOT a capitalist. You are just a worker

Correct. Evidence:
That is a truly embarrassing statement to make.

Noman, you included black lives matter into your argument about Trans people with Lozen so you could play the racist card no matter what he replied. Just like you used a tragedy to push your gun control, just like you used a global pandemic to push for more personal sacrifice to fight climate change. You actually dont care about any of these topics they're just a means to more government and your socialist utopia for you.

So your ignoring science just as some do with Climate Change.

I have no issue with LGQBT2S community and realize the discrimination they may face especially the Trans Community.

Lol. Black lives matter is obviously the dominant political story of the day, and using a comparison might have helped lozen if he similarly agreed that "All lives matter", while trivially true, is problematic.

What I didn't expect was you would feel the need to jump in and say something just so embarassingly stupid and tone deaf:

I have no issue with Black Lives Matter. Never lived the life of a black person and I hear about being pulled over 7-8 times in a year for just the color of your skin.
I try to treat everyone the same and can say I have never painted any part of my body black and never my full body and dance around like a monkey.

The phrase does not say Only Black Lives Matter. Though I do think CDN's are more tolerant than Americans.

Absolutely not. Stop that nonsense. I'll explain it again since you ignored my last post unpacking "Everyone is born a male or female.".

Firstly, let's ignore every case where your comment is factually wrong, i.e. where people are not born biologically 100% male or female biologically. as a simplification. Even still, what does you telling us this accomplish? Who is saying wrong you are dismissing? What value does this perspective bring that someone else isn't already aware of?

No trans advocate doesn't understand about chromosomes and being born with a penis. You don't have to tell them that! So you steadfastly standing up for capital S Science to tell all of us people are born male or female is ****ing pointless.

The issue is that any conversation about trans issues has to go so far beyond your reductive "everyone is born a male or female". It needs to take about the differences between sex and gender, for instance, and the degree to which your scientific fact (that's wrong, but ok we're ignore that) is extremely limited to the more relevant conversations.

And where it get's really uncomfortable - where you should take a moment to pause in your use of language - it that "everyone is born male and female" is a standard trope of transphobic people used to deny and discriminate against trans people. This morons don't understand the differences between gender and sex, and try to use "everyone is born a male and a female" to delegitimize the trans experience. Now to be clear, I don't know whether you think any of things, hopefully you don't, but when you focus on the exact same point that the actual transphobes do, you might want to think about your framing and the role of your language a bit more carefully.

Indeed.

So then let me ask you, if person A states "Black lives matter" and person B responds with "no no no All lives matter", is person be being problematic in their language in any way?

Yes and I would say to them the phrase " Black Lives Matter" does not say "Only Black Lives Matter" but I would not in any way call them a racist for having that position. Educate that person and hopefully he changes his opinion.

Here is a question for you Do the Dallas Cowboys have a right to cut any player that kneels during the national anthem?

You mean it's the latest political tool your using to try and win an argument? Not sure how the injustices against black people can be used as a comparison to whether or not people are born male or female.

I have no interest in getting to to an identity/gender politics argument with someone like you, just had to point out that socialist are gonna socialist.

I'm sorry you totally whooshed on the analogy, I will try to remember not to ever use analogies to the dominant new stories of the day with you.

But just because you missed the analogy doesn't mean you need to say something just embarrassingly terrible and revealing like this :

OUCH. That comment does.not.make.you.look.good.at.all.