probably
just emailed them and got this

Why would anyone think this thread is a level? Have official PokerStars announcements in the past ever been practical jokes or not come to fruition followed up with a "You just got SERVED ... lulz!!!"?

Good updates but wish the PLO Cap stayed there.

A bit of a different subject but any update on the Pokerstars SNG rake going down? It's not 2004 anymore where the games were good and since so many players have improved the edges are minimal so the rake must come down for people to make money.

Most of these people weren't 16-30 tabling back then either and now are so Pokerstars makes their money off the regs that have up'ed their volume of games since back in the day.

Good update but I do understand the frustration of cap sne players. I understand that there's a process that Stars has to go through to make big changes and the timing might not always line up, but with a yearly vip program they should really make a serious effort to have major changes known in December and effective Jan 1

Good update but I do understand the frustration of cap sne players.

no offense taken bud. but hard for me to grasp that you are not able to see what the structure of cap plo would do to small/midstakes games. you basically agree that the winrates before rakeback are minimal, if at all, longterm. so nobody is winning unless they are putting in huge volume and getting rakeback. u, ih8money, etc. there are not many people that put in that kind of volume. the games will dry up faster and faster in this format. do you really not get that?

it has nothing to do with me wanting softer games and more fish at my tables and everything to do with the fact that i want more money staying on the tables and out of the isle of man.

BIG ANNOUNCEMENT REGARDING POKERSTARS VIP PROGRAM AND THE GAME PLO- EFFECTIVE....-NOT SOON..... BUT NOW!!!


POKERSTARS, the most popular online poker site, has a very generous vip program which includes several levels. What they don't tell you is that at any moment the game you are currently playing or played to get to that vip status could be removed!!! How far will they go??? will you log on December 31st to get that final vip worth $20k+ and all the games be rake free not allowing you to get that final vpp?? Whats stopping them???? Will future vip benefits be changed?? Will the value of fpp's go down?? Thats the chance you're taking




As someone who earned 1 million vpp points in 2010- 738k vpp's coming from the game PLO which had the option of buying in for 20-50 big blinds, also had CAP tables where you could only lose 20 big blinds per hand- which was my favorite game.....



As of March 1st there is no longer an option to buy in for 20 big blinds at all!! Now I must risk 30 big blinds per hand. ALSO if my 30 big blind stack gets to 50 big blinds and I decide to leave I can't even buy in for 30 big blinds at that table for the next 2 hours!! WOW Im starting to wonder if they want me to play at all??



Yes i can and probably will do my best to learn playing with 30+ big blinds but that will take time, where I planned to be playing my 20 big blind risk per hand game which made Pokerstars $200k+ last year, and got me the "Yearly" Supernova Elite status.


But I have good news, a site by the name Full Tilt Poker offers shallow and cap PLO for those of you not looking to lose 40+ big blinds on a single hand.


I'm hoping they will not change their games and accept my rake to play a game I enjoy..... fingers crossed x x



As for Pokerstars enjoy the $200k+ I made you in a single year. Had planned to make you guys $400k+ this year playing the SAME games I played last year, but guess what. Those games are not even offered, and why??? Oh yeah I have not heard a single logical reason why 20 big blind PLO is not even an option anymore.

If it was because of the players not wanting it, then you should have let the tables do the talking. If all the 20 BB/ CAP games were empty then I would accept having to play a different game, but you guys made my choice. I will not play a game I do not enjoy!!! I will 100x more play a game I lose a lot of money but I enjoy.


I'm not a complainer, but removing a game that had been in place for years is wrong. Yes there's other games, believe me, ive been testing out other games while losing $$$ the whole month of Febuary and was looking forward to playing 20 BB Omaha March 1st and at least getting better vpp's, but 3 days before March 1st I find out that option won't be there.

At 265k vpp's for 2011- with plans of 2m vpp's ($400k+ rake for Pokerstars)- you guys should be thankful for any of my rake- had I known my game I enjoyd the most won't be here you wouldnt have got a single penny of rake.


Im a firm believer in standing up for what I believe is right and wrong, and anyone who enjoyed 20 BB PLO and accepts playing with more big blinds must be the type of person that let people walk over them in life


Thanks for allowing me to make you $200k+ in 2010 Pokerstars- but I won't be playing games I don't enjoy in 2011

lol

Agree with ih8money

I hear that argument over and over again and still dont really get it. The poker economy cyle looks like this:

There are 3 groups: loosing players, winnings player (either "direct" winners or per rakeback) and the site itself.

The money loosing player lost is split between the site and the winners. Rake is taken out by the site and rakeback and actual net winnings go to the winners.

In the end most of the money the loosing players spent goes out of the cycle either by costs/profit of the pokersite or by cashouts of the winners. So beside the money sitting in the accounts for a time x it is kind of a 0 balance.

So lets look at the 3 groups and what they want:

Loosing players want to have a fun gaming experience and / or the illusion they can win or at least the good feelings of having a great winning day once in a while. They DON'T care if their money goes to grinders or the pokersite.

Both needs (gaming experience / chance to win) are catered best in games with small edges. So normally they can play longer and chances are higher they have winning days on CAP tables compared to 100bb tables.

The Pokersite wants to bring as many fresh money from loosing players to the economy as possible because after all they "pay" the bills for them. Winnings player will follow automatically as long as they can be winners in some way. Getting people to play as much as possible AND get loosing players to play / have fun and deposit is in the best interest of the site.

So what about the winning players? The also want to get as many fresh money as possible to the cycle because they get their share from it also. BUT for sure they want as much as possible for them and not for the pokersite. Personally they choose the game/style they make the most winnings at a given risk but as a whole they wan casual players to deposit and they want as much as possible from that amount.


So I agree that a game with lower edges and therefor MORE percentage of fresh money going to the pokersite instead of going to the winning players seems maybe in the interest of some personally but not for the group completly (I guess thats your argument as a bottom line). BUT I have some arguments against that:

1. This is only true if the fresh money brought into the cycle is the same in both games! BUT I saw so many players playing CAP PLO that I never saw at a normal PLO table (even not a 20-50) that I would say the amount brought into the cycle (at least the PLO cycle) is going up by having CAP tables. See the post here by the guy who is sad because CAP PLO is gone but is happy because he liked it but looses at it. And there are many more (Holdem/SNG/MTT winners, casual Holdem players, ...). So even with the fact that Stars will get more than their fair share there is also more to devide by winners and pokersite.

2. CAP tables are easier to multitable. So at least some (like me) are able to do SNE which they wouldnt be able to in other PLO games. So after all I "pay" less to Stars making Elite than by making 800k VPP or something. So if more people (winners) get a higher VIP Level this is good for the winning group because they get more back from Stars.


3. In the end most (all) people care about one thing: themselves. And thats perfectly ok for sure in a pokereconomy. So after all some casual players like CAP as a playing experience, some winning players like it because they can make the most money out of it and Stars should like it because they get tons of rake AND fresh money into the cycle. So still I can see an argument why these 3 groups shouldn be allowed to play that game. Yeah MAYBE its not the best game for the long term health overall but what game is this? PLO 100bb? PLO 250bb? What about hyperturbo tournaments? Crapshoot tournaments with 1000+ player? Cap NL Holdem? The argument is just not valid on one particular game but so many others are untouched by it.

The only game which was killed and played and liked by casual players and some winners and stars getting rake is 20bb PLO. There were security arguments against DONs but other than that NO game which people want to play from both groups was killed by Stars as far as I know. So yeah call me selfish and whatever but on so many gametypes on Stars (and many with low edges like hyperturos, etc.) why am I not allowed to continue to play MY game which I lke and make money out of it and which some other players like too?

On last argument to "games will dry up".

How can that be? Winners will play as long as they want because they WIN at the games. So they will not quit.

Loosing players will play as long as they have money to spend. They can play LONGER on CAP tables at which they loose more slowly.


So the only difference is, that maybe less players are able to win there with closer equities so less "regulars" will play the game. But the fact if and when a game "dries" up is just set by the loosing players and the fact when they stop liking to play that game or when they go broke and have no more money to deposit. Both is even better in CAP tables than on 100bb tables. Thats one of the facts why CAP tables were so popular till now in PLO.

And after all if the money goes into the pocket of Pokerstars or will be cashed out by the winners (most players are not Isildurs ) is not important for the playing cycle in itself...

Will bow out after this as apparently cap players are very passionate about their little pushbot flip fests

I end with this. If the pot size is capped at 1/5 the usual size, the rake should also be capped at 1/5

That would be nice

cool

now no cap for nlhe and its all good

Hi Gerrit,

Basically what you are not accounting for is that game formats dry up more quickly when the rake accounts for more BB/100, especially games like cap where the earn potential can be more limited due to playable stacks sizes. The points that people have made numerous times about the effective rake being higher are more important than you are making them out to be long term, and this one of the reasons limit holdem dried up so quickly. (amongst other reasons)

I think it is unfortunate that so many people who have never played the cap tables have their priorities on eliminating them as opposed arguing for a format that is sustainable with lower rake. If the effective rake were the same in cap games as it was in other formats, it would then probably be a good thing for the PLO community long term and I would argue for having the games. But it's just a matter of mathamatical fact that if most of the Stars PLO player pool started playing cap with the current rake structure, there would be a lot less money being taken out by players factoring in the increased VPP's and rakeback that cap tables offer.

priceless to see ih8money cry...

dude was one of the first talentfree shortstackers around when i got started in 2008/beginning 2009 - good times.

wish you best luck at Fulltilt Poker - u'll need it, because FT weight-contributed rakeback will unfortunately not pay ur bills

and from wat i've seen at PTR you don't make too much money from the tables, do u???

hahaha

if you need help with mc donald's application - shoot me a pm...


finally game over for all u lil scumbags who unjustified made a good living out of a game you had and have no clue about!


ADIOZ!

The changes are now implemented.

Many tables of the old types will still exist until the server restart approximately 12 hours from now.

sweet!

I don't see 30-100 tables, but cant make anymore 20-50... hm

take your filters off. the 30-100 tables aren't labeled.

+ infinity

Pokerstars Steve,

Thanks for the update.

What is the rational for keeping the 20-50BB and 40-100BB tables for Heads Up only? Why are you not consolidating heads up tables to one set of 30-100BB tables?

What is the difference between a "fast" heads up table and a "normal" heads up table?

Thanks.

thx roy, hiding under Other

lol average players per flop for 2/4 games has many under 20% from when they were all 30%+ players per flop lmao.... who would thought people would tighten up because now they have more big blinds. Amusing to say the least enjoy the nit fest wow two tables dipped to 9% players per flop funnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn and we're talking about a game with 4 cards. Cmon guys this is what u wanted now play the damn game

out of the remaining 7 CAPtables 1 table below 20% players per flop..... oh the memories and out of the remaining 10 of the 20-50 bb tables a single one is under 20% just a reference for the future when looking back and when PLO got nitty and unenjoyable