LOL, I was thinking the same thing. I feel sorry for OP, and really believe he's being honest.

Please understand that for most hands, we are just watching the other--most of our play is automatic. There is not much of a decision when you get dealt T4o in middle position, or AA in the Big Blind. It is when hands come up that have close/marginal decisions that the sweater offers some advice.

I don't understand how what my wife and I do is any different than what we've seen on countless training videos where play is being sweated (including Cardrunners that is partnered with Full Tilt). We've watched several poker training videos where the person being sweated/coached was receiving advice on almost every single meaningful hand. And we've seen videos where the person playing received tips on the playing style of their opponents. And we know full well that many people have received similar sweat sessions with their coach.

At the point we're at now, my wife and I don't have to say much on most hands. We tend to think similarly and normally know what play is best without having to saying anything. Further, it is ultimately still the person at the keyboard that makes the decisions. There have been times playing on my account where my wife suggested an action that I did not take. And the same is true for her. So, in the end, it is still me making the decision when I'm on my account, and it is still her making the decision when it is on her account. Although, those are the hands we make sure to look at when our sessions are over.

If what we did really is against the TOS, then the line needs to be clearly drawn showing what is acceptable sweating and what is unacceptable sweating. I really don't know, but I know we were not trying to do anything wrong. And, I don't think we were doing anything that had not been seen done in multiple poker training videos already.

I guess the main difference in what we do is that we do it almost every day whereas in the sweating in poker videos it is done just once in a while (maybe only once a month). If that is the line, then I'd like to know. Are we allowed to sweat someone once a month? Once a week? Every day? Can we sweat each other, or is sweating done only one way? Do you think top pros have had sessions where one or more other players (possibly pros) were watching and making suggestions on how to play? Is it okay to have one session where you receive substantial advice on your play? Two sessions? Three?

Seriously, you need to think about exactly where the line is drawn. I'm fine if someone wants to delineate the line on what is acceptable sweating and what is not. If a site wants to clearly define that line, then we'll certainly go along with that since we'd all be under the same conditions.

TY Novahunter.

I doubt that any of this is related to Full Tilt's actions. There is no OPTAH rule online, so that isn't what they are concerned about.

Lol.

My wife says that of the two of us, I am the weaker player. Over the last six months, I have been losing, while she has been winning. This is one fact my wife does not let me forget. I may be willing to post graphs of our respective winnings/losings, but I highly doubt I'll be posting a picture of her with my screen name written on her.

damn this is not what i want hear. i play at fulltilt and this neg feedback makes me think of going stars. gl buddy

Although you may not realize it, there is a big difference between sweating someone in a random game, on a random site, by a random trainer to what you and your wife are doing.

You said that you and your wife have been playing there for years. That means you have been playing against the same people, especially in the higher stakes. How can you compare a coach at Card Runners from telling his student, "Ok, a shove here is +EV" to you telling your wife, "Oh, that's 'so and so' he'll fold to a 3/4 pot sized bet here". I'm sorry to break the news to you, what you are doing/did is a form of collusion whether you did it intentionally or not.

Is this the line? If it is, I think I can find more than one training video that had sweating that was not on a random game, not on a random site, and not on a random trainer.

The advice we give each other is far more situational dependent and far less player dependent. We occasionally have stated a tidbit on a player, but it is far less often than you seem to be thinking, and definitely not in terms of "Oh so and so will fold to a 3/4 pot sized bet here". Rather, our advice is stuff like, "looks like a good spot to bluff to me," or "I'd just fold. Doesn't seem like someone would bet the flop, bet the turn, and check-raise the river on that board without having it."

The most interesting hands are those that we disagree on. Whenever that happens, at the end of our sessions, we take a look at those hands more in depth and try to come to a consensus of who was more likely to be right. I think that's where our poker game really grows. Anyhow, as others have said, I don't think that's what this investigation is about (although it is an interesting topic).

Well played sir. How long have you been holding onto this image? I guess you found just the right thread to post it in.

I don't know if you have done it, but just post both screennames and 2+2 will do the rest.

Do not understand the bold part. I have had issues with FTP, and I have been helped by FTPSean. One issue was not resolved in my favor, but that's life.

I do not find it odd at all that after he gave Sean his info that his account was frozen, and here is why:

FTP has ~100,00 real money players (a guess). Each and every account cannot be investigated fully (because of the volume of accounts) unless an issue/red flag is brought to their attention. This is why cheating accounts are usually locked after trying to cashout; because their history is analyzed before a payout is issued.

OP had FTP initiate an investigation on his account as to why his Email was possible leaked. While investigating that matter, FTP must have further investigated the accounts in question and found something troubling.

Is that really so odd?

well duh! of course its only the big decisions that your discussing. Why would you think that what you are doing is ok just because you only discuss the hands that matter?!?!

I would like to see such training video's where people are actually telling people how to play their hands during live play and giving them more then just situational observations.

Yes i agree it does need to be made 100% clear and im not going to look through sites TOS to find it, but one of the very basic and fundemental rules of poker is that it is 1 person per hand. You are not allowed to seek advice from another player whilst involved in a hand. This is true online and live and should be a given rule.
If you are claiming that you did not know this rule, or are saying that you are exploiting the rule as it is not 100% clearly defined in the TOS, then you are wrong and i believe you know it.

Kind of as above, you know the rule is 1 person per hand.

Sweating someone is not about telling that person how to play or giving "advice", sweating is (should be) done so that the person viewing can learn from the person playing and have the person playing tell them "this is why i 4 bet" etc.

I want to start off by saying I tend to believe you. You have also done a very good job presenting this, well done. I read everything. I just want to make a few statements.


1. This decision has not been made.

2. You have wrongfully accused FTPSean IMO of malice or at least blamed him for this happening. He stated what he did and it makes full sense to me that security is doing this investigation because your name was brought to them, even though it was unrelated. I don't think this has anything to do with them harassing you because you "exposed a leak". Lee Jones stated 3. Choosing to "sweat" each other in real time is a horrible lapse in judgment, and is an angle. This is just my opinion and you may in fact be correct that training sites do it. This is on the sites to correct this issue. I know that poker has always been and should continue to be, one player to a hand. Going over hands or talking strategy after the fact is different and I'm sure you are aware of that.

4. Not having another computer makes no sense (except your statement that you choose to play a style where you guys play two to a hand). With the money you have, money can not be the issue. You can get a brand new computer for $400. I just can't imagine in today's world that you guys not only share all of your playing time on 1 computer but any other internet work/surfing/etc. Perhaps you are really that close though and never find yourselves apart.

5. You mention that you log into each others accounts to do various tasks. This is also not good judgment and probably against the rules. I know from your other thread that you have tokens/poker only emails/passwords that are very unique(meaning you can't even remember them) etc. Are you in charge of creating/controlling these? I know you stated that you changed your wife's password the other day. Unfortunately for you there is no such thing as joint accounts on a poker site, like there would be with a bank, etc.

I appreciate you being open and telling us everything. I also hope you can appreciate the fact that if you do 3 and 5 together, without even having 4, you have put yourself in a truly unique situation and that a review of your account(s) is completely necessary.

All this said, I believe you. You have to be able to see how this is bad judgment though and really can't blame FTP for investigating.

I also think putting out both screen names here will help you. It will confirm that you don't play the same tables and that you are not abusing the other known advantages a second account could give someone.

If all you have presented is true then I see FTP concluding the investigation in your favor. I also don't think it's wrong of FTP to investigate here.
Good luck

Even though my post stated it I wanted to +1 this because it's really important to see how similar these accounts are and the many other things that can be gauged by looking these up.

Good job with your OP. I read it all and I usually don't read tl;dr stuff. You should take heart that you and your wife have the community's support. Hopefully that will expedite the process. I'll be watching this thread keenly. Good luck sir.

Dude cut him some slack. OP has been pretty calm and rational all things considered.

I am not sure there is an equivalent OPTAH rule for online play as there is in live play. Here's a link to Full Tilt's terms and conditions:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/terms-and-conditions

Nowhere in these rules do you find something that says "one player to a hand." Rule 10.2 on collusion states that players [those at the table] cannot share hole cards, chip dump, or talk about the hand before action is completed. Other than that, I can't find anything that would even remotely relate to OPTAH. I think the very reason there is a lot of videos with sweating is precisely because there is not an equivalent online OPTAH rule.

If you still want to argue, I'd rather not. Let's agree to disagree. If you want to discuss further, PM me, or start a new thread to talk about whether there should be an equivalent OPTAH rule for online play.

Got it. I'm just reminding him that this has not been concluded yet and gave him reason to believe he is not being targeted because of the spam email incident. Both things should help ease his mind.

OP, for someone who has taken the steps you claim to have taken in order to safeguard both accounts from any FTP suspicion (under the m-a radar, so to speak) this is incredibly foolish:

from FTP
Similiar chatting and gameplay might be too much coincidence to swallow here.
Unfortunately FT never specifies their reasons for taking action.


I struggle picturing the scenario where it's time to get in a little poker and only 1 of 2 AVID poker players gets to play.

The scene you picture of a couple sharing is sweet but with the history of both of you doing well I can not fathom not having a second PC and one or the other of you trying a different site.

You say this is your source of family income yet it's limited by not spending a measly k to enhance or even double that family income.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I'd really like to know how you can have three kids and also the time to sit around and watch your spouse play poker. That might be the most useful information ever posted on 2+2.

Can you explain how it would be beneficial for OP to have two active rakeback accounts (with the exception of any additional bonus value)? Unless there's some advantage to having two active accounts that have never played at the same table I can't see why anyone with two braincells to rub together would put themselves in this situation?

Good point. I really can't. Unless switching SNs could give a player a real or perceived advantage at certain games and stakes.

I also can't see where someone with something to hide would nit over one spammy e-mail and draw attention.

And, as I said, I especially can't see 2 winners sharing 1 pc for 3 years.


.

Thanks Nofx. You have always been a poster I have respected.


Hopefully it won't be too much longer now.

I really don't know if it was FTPSean, someone else, or just mere coincidence. I just know it was FTPSean that brought my ID to security to do whatever analysis he asked for. I tend to believe and hope he did not do that with any malicious intent. If I blamed him of maliciousness, I apologize.

The problem I have is that it all seems very coincidental. Lots of people say that Full Tilt Security looks at your account when you cash out. Well, my wife and I have both had multiple cashouts over the past three years. Yet Full Tilt Security never notified me or my wife of any problems on our accounts over three years of cash outs. Only once my name was revealed as the one that questioned their email privacy policy do we get our accounts locked. So, the whole timing issue seemed highly coincidental to me.

Well, I do admit that our most productive times were after the sessions were over and we had time to digest hands and things we had disagreement on. Anyhow, we didn't want to omit things we were doing--even ones that maybe some people wouldn't agree with.


I can see now that it was a mistake not to have two computers. At the time, we thought it was a good way to learn poker, and a good way to spend time together. Lesson learned.


If I wanted to make ourselves sound better to both 2p2 and to Full Tilt, we would have omitted this detail. But, again, we didn't want to omit things we were doing.

You're probably right that even though we weren't playing on one another's accounts, even accessing one another's accounts to cash out was probably technically against the TAC. I guess we were looking at it like a bank account and thought that when we needed some money, it wouldn't be a big deal for either of us to hop on both accounts and handle the cashouts.

As far as creating emails/passwords, either of us can do it. We have a program that creates and stores passwords. I don't actually create the random password myself. Our program generates a random password for us. Anyhow, yeah I was the one that last changed our email and passwords for our accounts. Said emails and passwords (including the newly created ones) were stored in our locked password program that either of us can access.

Well yeah. Hindsite is 20/20. I just hope that FTP can see that just as FTPSean probably did not have any ill intent, neither did we.

I hope you can understand our extreme hesitancy on doing this. We already released my screen name once via this site, and we got really burned as a result. How does the saying go? "Get burned once, shame on you. Get burned twice, shame on me."

It's very hard to see straight when you're in the middle of this. Several people seem to believe FTP will come out in our favor, and I hope you're right. We do appreciate your thoughtful post.

This is not adding up.

When I first read this post I gave you credit for being in a spot not of your doing.

No more. The more you write the less I believe you.

Your explantion on the computer is bogus. You have $100,00+ plus online and you can't spend money on a 2nd computer? A +ev purchase if there ever was one. Why not? Cause you didn't need it when your the only one playing.

You said you had prior debts-makes things tight-not buying the poor routine. You still have $100,000+.

You said in the OP:

"The next morning, I received an email from Full Tilt saying my account is suspended. My wife got the same email:"

and before that

"At first, Full Tilt did not even say why the accounts were closed—simply that the accounts were being investigated. I immediately asked them and Sean what was going on."

If I got my 6 figure account closed I would be e-mailing immediately so fast the keyboard would catch fire. But you DIDN'T!! Your first e-mail you showed was 16+hrs after FT sent theres. You said you recieved it that morning but didn't responed until the next day. Either there are more e-mails or you were busy making up a story.(by the way-what e-mail program do you use?)

I'm sure when FT looks at your play style they match, the chat will have come from one person(in other words, you don't write like a girl).


Good luck getting your money.

How about posting some graphs of both your & your wifes win rates over the yrs.

Could the technical data be referring to similiar win rates that correlate as time
went by?

In other words if you both your graphs show your were break-even players
prior to 2009, then all of a sudden your both big winners post 2009, it'd
seem awfully strange to me.

Also the similiarity of your frequencies might have something to do with it
(VPIP, 3 bet, etc)

Andronicus, I don't mean to fill your thread, as this is my third post. I am interested in this though and always want to see the right thing happen. I really appreciate the kind words and response to my post. I apologize for my longest post coming off as harsh or judgmental, it's not my intent.

You've done a great job so far and everything aligns with the attitude of a person who knows he has done nothing wrong and is innocent. I think the only thing here I personally have left to wonder about/comment on is

1. It's very important that you at least have a third party look at your game play/stats. A completely confident and innocent person would not have a problem with this.

2. I think your account is being investigated but I don't necessarily share your feeling that you've been "burned" or slighted. It's pretty amazing to me that this hasn't been reviewed yet and although you preemptively wrote the sites through the years, there is just too much common here for it to at least not be reviewed. Surely you had to know this was coming at some point, although I agree after 3 years of it not that a person could think they are clear on this issue. Remember, those emails you sent in the past probably did not get past support though.

Perhaps rather then posting your screen name you could just give it to 1 or two respected 2+2'rs. I really think this is huge for you, although I can see an argument made for this to be not needed at this point. gl