a) that table sucks, way too many short stacks.
b) closing the action I call and I'm pretty happy about it vs. two short stacks. They'll tend to get it in with almost any piece of that flop.
c) vs. deeper opponents I'd raise that

Also, if you haven't done it already, download pokerstove. It's super useful when trying to figure out calling ranges vs. short stacks.

Board: Jc 7c 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.188% 37.15% 00.04% 31264 30.00 { 8c8d }
Hand 1: 62.812% 62.78% 00.04% 52826 30.00 { TT, 9c9d, 9c9h, 9c9s, 77-55, AcKc, AcQc, AJs, AcTc, Ac9c, KcQc, KJs, KcTc, QJs, QcTc, JTs, Tc9c, 98s, 76s, 5c4c, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo, 9c8d, 9c8h, 9c8s, 9h8d }
Didn't change a whole lot.

All that, except for the fact that the short stacks at 25nl are terrible, and very exploitable if you adjust, so I dont think its a bad table at all. You just need to adjust and profit.

I've never seen villain before and have no stats on him other than the 60ish hands we've played today. So far he has tag stats and has 3bet a couple times.

We have a bit of a history already though, and he's on the bad end of it.

I 4bet iso'd a shorties squeeze when I opened Q9o and he got squeezed in the middle...

The next orbit, I 4bet shoved when he 3bet the btn vs my co and a donk insta cold called (I though it was misclick almost always)...

He's been trying to win every hand on his btn.

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (MP): $299.61
CO: $226.25
BTN: $195.30
SB: $38.00
BB: $131.50
UTG: $40.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is MP with K J
1 fold, Hero raises to $7, CO calls $7, BTN calls $7, 1 fold, BB calls $5

Flop: ($29.00) J 2 9 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20.00, CO folds, BTN calls $20, BB folds

Turn: ($69.00) 2 (2 players)
Hero ????

Devin, I have sold my soul, and know the answer to this one. Check call turn and river if the bets sizes are normal. If they look strange, ie too big or too small, get away.

Why? He either has a hand which is not vulnerable, and so is happy to risk calling not raising - in which case you are stuffed; or he's a non-believer, and is floating with maybe 6 outs, or he has a piece which is worse than yours, and is hoping to improve. But your hand is junk. TPGK, it's very likely good, esp given the history, but you really want to keep the pot as small as possible while still getting to the river. If you raise, everything worse folds, so bizarrely, maximum value here comes from check calling it down - unless you get a read from a weird bet size, that you are definitely behind.

What do you think? Does this make sense?

Hello cash thread, I think I'm going to play 6-max again this summer. How do you do that again?

Personally if I think he's likely to be dicking around trying to win this pot, I'd bet call the turn rather than check call down.

Betting the turn has the benefit of charging a number of draws that are possible as well as letting him monkey it in with something we have crushed.

Until recently, I too would have preferred bet call to check call turn, but my philosophy on this has changed in this type of situation. Fundamentally, we don't know where we are in the hand. We may be WAWB or it may be much closer, and our lead may be only marginal against a good draw.

In this situation, I think we should avoid putting any more money in the pot than is absolutely necessary. If we have reads that the guy floats too much and folds to a second barrel, that is different, because we can safely second barrel a blank turn, and find out if we are indeed WB. But this is probably not the best way of maximising our equity, because he folds worse hands that he might well want to get more money in the pot with and it's a tricky calculation as to whether we lose more money than we win in each case. So unable to make a decision with confidence, I err on the side of keeping my money out of the pot as far as possible, until I have more information. Obv, if a scare card hits on the turn, I'm probably reevaluating and may either bet fold or check fold depending on reads. If it's a brick, I'm check calling so long as I don't get any information from his betsize that will let me know I'm behind.

My fairly long response is because this is a very common situation, and I am not sure how profitable my line is, or whether I am actually taking a nitty line which will lose me money in the long run, so more input v much appreciated.

I thought the turn was a very tricky and interesting spot. I don't like most of our options, which highlights the value of position and why this villains attempt to win every pot on the button isn't a bad strategy, if he's good at it.

My problem here lies in how much credit can I give this guy for being a thinking player. I cbet into 3 opponents on a pretty dry flop. T8s and QTs are the only hands he could have that are drawing. I do think he peels a lot with Jx hands as well. How often does he have worse than that though? If I barrel this turn, he pretty much has to give me credit for at least Jx or an over pair, and more like QJ+ or KJ+. Since I'm near the bottom of that range, I was questioning the value in a bet, and certainly in a b/c.

Most people I have talked about the hand suggest bet however. They think he will call with worse Js and the draws enough, and they may be right. Some have said to b/c cause I have the read he's trying to win most his buttons, some said to b/f for the obvious reason that in a normal situation we are pretty crushed by a turn raise here.

The problem with c/c is that there aren't that many draws, and I wouldn't expect him to float in a 4-way pot that often. But, it does allow for some pot control (although if he bet sizes well, he should be able to get most if not all my stack regardless).

I actually c/c simply for pot control, which I don't know if it's enough of a reason. Seems like it's just something you do after reading your first poker book, and don't really think about ranges at all...ur just pot controlling!

Anyway, here's how the hand played out...I'll give my reasoning as the hand progressed later, what are your thoughts on the rest of the hand?


Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (MP): $299.61
CO: $226.25
BTN: $195.30
SB: $38.00
BB: $131.50
UTG: $40.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is MP with K J
1 fold, Hero raises to $7, CO calls $7, BTN calls $7, 1 fold, BB calls $5

Flop: ($29.00) J 2 9 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20.00, CO folds, BTN calls $20, BB folds

Turn: ($69.00) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $36.00, Hero calls $36

River: ($141.00) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $76.00, Hero calls $76

easy river call. wp nh.

Obv this is where reads are so vital. In their absence, I'm check calling as you did, but I'd really be wracking my brains to remember whether $76 is likely to be a value sized bluff bet, or a smallish value bet, given what I've seen of the guy so far. I suspect that a thinking player could size that bet a little bigger for value, and even bigger, given that the board has paired, for a bluff - so I definitely call. If he has the nuts or junk, then I think you have gained some really useful information, assuming he's around for enough hands.

Many thanks for elucidating your thought process, very insightful.

I would have played it the same. I like your thought process - its kind of like what I was thinking, only more clear.

I think you are going to see stuff that crushes you some small percentage of the time, but with your read of the villain as being a guy who tries to win every pot in that position, I think you're going to be ahead often enough so that this is the best line. These guys float & then try to push you off what you were c-betting with frequently when they have draws & air. I doubt you're going to get enough value from worse hands to make raising or betting at any point past the flop any good.

Yea, his bet sizing is weird imo, especially because I know what he had.

I wasn't super excited about the call, because I really felt based on the situation and his bet sizing that he was, in fact, value betting here. But, given the bet size, I thought he could be value betting enough worse hands (QJ, JT) that I should be calling. The only hand I was really worried about was AJ. I think with 99, 22, A2 he's betting more. Most people at 200nl still are really obvious with their bet sizing, and I think you can deduce a lot from it.

He had KQ and I was surprised.

Two overs and a gut-shot doesn't surprise me for a guy like you described, although this sizing might have been different than what you had seen from him before and that's what threw you off. Maybe he was changing up his bet sizing to disguise his hand based on the history you had with him.

So I'm told that playing 6 max will loosen me up, since I've been called too much of a nit, so I'm giving it a few weeks. As a note, I hadn't reloaded my chips because I was planning on leaving before the BB hit me, I should take the 30 seconds and just do the auto-reload...

Villain was tightish, I don't have HUD running but he was playing pretty straight up. I figure he's c-betting there pretty wide, so I planned to flat the flop and if he ever checked to semi-bluff. I figure I can get him to fold PPs and rep a Q, or get him off AJ/AK type hands. I

Also, I called PF to take this exact kind of stab. How often is this move going to blow up in my face?

Should I try raising this flop? Or checking turn to try and score a flush card that also improves him?


Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $10.25
BB: $28.76
UTG: $70.40
CO: $25.00
Hero (BTN): $17.48

Pre Flop: ($0.25) Hero is BTN with T 7
1 fold, UTG raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $1, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.25) 2 6 Q (2 players)
UTG bets $2, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($6.25) 5 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $4, UTG folds

If he flats my turn and I blank --

He checks to me, I shove?
He bets to me, I fold?

Looks fine to me.

Preflop: This is on the weaker end of suited kinda connected hands that are some what callable, which means I'd 3bet it a lot rather than call. But I don't think calling is bad.

Flop is fine, at these stakes you can also raise here even though ur value range would be narrow (ie, you never have Q2, Q6 or 26 here). They aren't going to think about this stuff, they'll just play their hand.

Float and betting the turn is fine. They aren't going to cbet, c/r the turn enough to be worried about getting blown off ur draw imo.

If the flop were drier like no flush draw, and I really didn't want to fold, I like to use delayed floats. At higher stakes they work well because people expect floats to bet the turn, and it keeps your range much wider so you 'could' be value betting the river much thiner, making your bluff effective and believable.

If I get called on the turn I'm not shoving the river unless I hit. I expect tight 25nl players to mostly be check calling KQ type stuff on the turn for "pot control"

200BB effective stacks: Villain is 18/14/4 over 28 hands w 20% 3bet, FWIW. He got $50 of his stack by stacking me 5 hands earlier. My play was simply designed to get all the money in even if he only has a Q.


$50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP: $99.00
CO: $45.00
BTN: $44.55
SB: $144.90
BB: $150.25
Hero (UTG): $104.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is UTG with 6 6
Hero raises to $1.75, MP raises to $6.50, 4 folds, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($13.75) 6 5 Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $11.00, Hero raises to $22, MP raises to $53.50, Hero calls $31.50

Turn: ($120.75) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $44.50, MP calls $39 all in

OK, Villain has KK, and what interests me about this hand is if I was him, what is his correct play? ie, how do you avoid getting stacked in this situation?

Movieman, the only thing I would add is that you don't really need to play hands as marginal as suited 2 gappers HU at 25nl to have a good winrate. I think that even the regs are too stationish for you to win often enough by bluffing with them when you miss, and you don't hit them often enough to make them pay off. Having said that, I too occasionally make a play from the button v an early raiser with a marginal hand, but I think Devin's advice to 3 bet is much, much, the best play. It disguises your hand, and makes it more likely that you can win by bluffing when you miss.

Basically the only hand he beats that you might play like this is AQ. Once his 3-bet gets called on the flop he should think he's behind unless he thinks you're a total fish. He's repped exactly what he has and you don't seem to care.

You only have a 1/3 pot bet on the turn so he can't really fold once he 3-bets the flop.

Correct play is probably flatting c-r on flop and folding to turn bet, but that's just being results oriented.

you hit a set on a 3 bet had pf and he had KK 208bb deep? what am I missing here, K on the river?

I'd just get it in on the flop. I really doubt his 3bet/folding here very often. I'd rather get it in than have a scared card come to kill your action.

As for him, it's a very tough spot to not get stacked even 200bb deep. There are draws and good TP hands you could play this way. One way to get more money in better is to not 3 ball the flop though, and let you bluff the turn if you are bluffing, semi bluffing.

Coming from cash games I'd say he overplayed his overpair there. Most of the time a check-minraise can really only mean a set (or some other sort of monster that is trying to be inviting). TPTK just calls, and a straight draw/flush draw sure as hell just calls. His best move is either A) flat flop, fold turn or b) shove to flop minraise. You can't overplay big pairs 200BB deep like that.

but are you really folding KK on this board to a check-min raise? could he have just c/c down without going broke? at the lower stakes, thats what im doing with KK in this spot after i get check-min raised

Maybe if the opponent is a complete drooler you could c/c down there but vs. a competent reg you're not good often enough. Also, the pot is big enough once you flat the c/r on the turn that Peru can get it in on the river.

At 100nl and higher, it's a rare villain who doesn't run scared of a check min raise, but at <50nl, it almost always gets called by TP, or raised by an overpair, so it's an effective way of getting the guy to put enough $$ in the pot so that he's committed after a less than pot sized turn bet to call off his stack on the river.

If I shove flop 200BBs deep, he can get away even w KK - I have very little history with him, but definitely the regs (and I already suspect he may be one) will fold KK. Ditto with the CR shove. Flatting his flop 3 bet, means that there is so much money in the pot, that he can't escape even if a scare card hits, whereas an immediate 4 bet shove would prob get AQ to fold - it's close, but psychologically, flatting gives him time to realise he's committed and not instafold TP or an overpair to massive aggression.

My own solution to playing his hand is to flat call flop, and check/fold turn to a shove, but call about a half pot bet, then if we see a river, check/fold or check call depending on bet sizes. And obv, I'm not happy with this "solution". But I'm not folding KK to a minraise either!

If I could think creatively, I might suggest min raising flop to $44, and folding to a shove, or if called, and villain checks turn, shoving. If he shoves turn, then I fold. I'm not sure if this is even a playable line, but I can't see any other way of defining where I'm at without getting my stack in.

(In the hand, river was a blank and I stacked him)