FWIW, Full Tilt has deep stacked tables where you can buy-in for 200BBs, and they are insanely profitable because villains don't adjust their ranges and get too much money in with TP type hands, while being too scared to bluff shove.

I basically play lots of hands that I can stack with, Axs, SCs, pairs, and fold AJo etc a lot.

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (MP): $25.84
CO: $29.14
BTN: $5.82
SB: $25.45
BB: $24.23
UTG: $25.47

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP with T 9
UTG raises to $1, Hero raises to $2.50, 4 folds, UTG raises to $6, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($12.35) 8 7 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($14.35) 7 (2 players)
UTG bets $1.50, Hero raises to $5, UTG calls $3.50

River: ($24.35) A (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Villain was pretty laggy, he had folded to some 3 bets before, so his 4 bet to me signals JJ+, AK, I guess he does it with AQ and TT too, from what I could tell, so I figured I was live or at least drawing well PF...

The flop was orgasmic, and I realize I won't hit it that hard anywhere close to this hard in the future, so I planned to raise whatever he bet on the turn...

Which I did. Did I raise enough for value on the turn?

Then river I slapped my forehead and checked behind in case he had AdKx or JJ-KK with the diamond, or AA. Or do I throw out a bet on the river in case he has a PP without a diamond?

movieman, you've posted two hands recently.

In both you are facing an EP raise, the first hand you have T7s and the second you have T9s. You flated T7s, and 3bet T9s. I realize that they are against different villains, but in general, I think you have it backwards. The more postflop value your hand has, the more you don't want to get 4bet off it, therefore the less you should 3bet it. So, I'd be much more likely to 3bet T7s and flat T9s.

That being said, I don't think flating or 3betting either in either situation is bad. However, you're 3bet is too small. It's just going to convince him to call more often. I'd fold to the 4bet. He probably doesn't have much of a reason to think you are 4betting light, and I don't think you are getting odds with 100bb stacks.

On the flop, it's strange. It's really hard to know without history if this villain makes these stupidly small bets to induce, or if he's just indicating the strength of his hand. Because of the money all ready in the pot though, I'd just raise/call here with your monster draw, but flating is fine.

On the turn, your raise is so strange. A pot size raise would be to $18.85 and you make it $5? 1/3rd pot. I can't image that being even close to optimal. You probably will stack most made hands anyway, so in that respect it's not bad cause it's just a 1/2 pot river shove, but you're losing against his big diamonds and other hands.

This is a very enlightening point.

On the turn, I wanted to raise the pot, but with our stacks a pot size bet is close to a shove and shoving 18 dollars over a 1 dollar raise seemed like it would scare off more hands. Should I be raising to around the 9-11 dollar area?

yea, I like about 1/2 his remaining stack usually.

Basically want to get as much money in on that turn as possible. There are too many cards that can come that he will just shut down on (assuming he has something you beat), thus limiting your ability to extract any value on the river.

pf, +1 on what devin said. when someone minbets into a pot that big i generally just treat it as if he checked. in this case i am betting every time because i am happy to take this pot down right away and i know i have the odds to call a shove. if he calls i am shoving any turn.

I agree. no comment on pf that already hasn't been said, but I'm pretty much rr the flop with 1 million outs.

Me not posting in here lately - This thread dropping like a rock - coincidence?

Ok, this is the kind of question that doesn't get many responses, but, as my 6 yo would say, "what a heck?"

6max. Hero raises preflop from SB and villain calls from BB. Villain is not good, not a regular, calls too much and bluffs too much. Hero has a full stack, but villain has like 70bbs or so.

Hero flops something like a vulnerable top pair with a Jack or Ten or maybe 2nd pair. Villain will call a flop bet at least 90% of the time - any pair - any terrible draw - any overs. Hero bets and villain calls.

Turn is an under. Hero KNOWS if he checks villain will bet. This is at least 90% certain.

Now, the question is about the plan and what villain's play on the river would mean. Hero is thinking that check-call turn and check-call river is best, but is not sure. Hero doesn't really know villain well enough to know how often villain is firing river if he misses. Obviously if villain fires river most of the time a double c-c is best, but do you guys recognize the villain I'm talking about? and if so, would a river bet often either mean he had something or that he rivered something?

Given these conditions, when do you c-c turn, c-f river or some other line?

-------------------------------

Somewhat similar spot
Position and hands are the same, but now you are deeper and villain is a laggy regular. Likewise, you know damn sure he'll bet turn if you check and are not so sure about river. Say this time turn and/or river are definitely overs. What do you think about c-c turn, c/r river?

It seems like villain's range here could be wide enough that you could be close on c-c river for value, but his range of hands that beat you could be big enough and weak enough that c/r as a bluff is good.

depends...

As a general rule of thumb, if villain pots the river on hand 1 you've lost, if he overbets, you've won, if he bets small you're winning often enough to call ... or even better shove!

Hand 2 more raising needs to be in your options. Laggy regs only want to play big pots when they have you stuffed, so this is the time when you eschew pot control with your marginal hand, and raise him either on flop or turn, to push him off anything marginal that beats your marginal. If he continues, your losing most of the time.

In response to micro's post:

Scenario 1: I'd agree with xPeru. These guys will usually tell you a lot with there bet sizing. So, you can probably c/decide against them on both the turn and river.

Scenario 2: It depends on the regular and what his perception of you is. If he's good/decent and perceives you the same, his bet sizing should be less obvious. If this is the case, I'd probably just bet bet c/f against them with my TPWK and SPGK hands.

Since micro says the thread is dying, let's talk about overbetting.

For value: Typically I over bet when villain's range looks very strong. Either draws all got there and I can beat their draws or all draws missed and they are either calling a big bet or nothing, etc. I will do this against about any villain, but doesn't happen that much.

As a bluff:
- Against donks: I've done this very little, but the spot where I think it'll work and has a place is in pots where you take a weak line. Like b/c/b where you think villain has a weak range, but will call any normal bet because he'll perceive it as cheap. I'd really only use it in this scenario vs a donk who will just be scared of the big bet (obv a certain type of donk, not the ones that don't care and are gambling).
- Against regulars: Again, this isn't something I've done much of. Against thinking players, I'd think it'll work well in spots where their hand looks pretty strong, but it's hard for them to be nutted. Like, it's obv they have something like AT on an AJ358r board, and they know it's obv, so when you overbet it looks like you want a call.

I've got a couple hand examples for the last scenario, first a hand were I'm the villain with the obvious weak top pair. I discussed this hand with Inyaface and we both agreed, that while a little strange, it was pretty likely he wanted a call and was expecting me to call a good amount. We also agreed it be a pretty great spot to overbet bluff.

Relevant information is I'm playing 3 handed with these two villains on two tables trying to get 50bb min tables going. Villain is TAG 22/19/6 with high flop and river bet frequencies. He'll see me as solid, but I probably go to showdown too much and my stats are something like 23/19/2.1 and call in the BB vs steal 12%.

At the same time as this hand, but before the river, villain is busy stacking me on the other table AK<JJ aipf.

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 3 players
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SB: $209.40
Hero (BB): $200.00
BTN: $201.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with A J
BTN raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($15.00) 6 4 A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $8.00, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($31.00) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $18.00, Hero calls $18

River: ($67.00) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $98.00, Hero ????

The second was against a different villain. We have a bit of history from this session, but I don't know that much about him from before. He has one hugely exploitable leak that I was pounding on. He was opening >60% of SBs overall, and >85% on this session. Yea, free money! I had not folded to an open for awhile, and this was the third time I 3bet him.

First time I 3bet he folded, second time he 4bet and I 5bet bluff shoved and he folded, and the third time, this time, he calls.

As for postflop, i'm not really sure if much had happened of any note other than he'd given up once, I'd just folded once, and maybe we had a little fight for one pot, but no showdowns that I can recall.

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
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SB: $506.74
Hero (BB): $405.90
CO: $53.20
BTN: $197.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with 8 T
2 folds, SB raises to $6, Hero raises to $18, SB calls $12

Flop: ($36.00) A 9 K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12.00, SB calls $12

Turn: ($60.00) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $45.00, SB calls $45

River: ($150.00) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $175.00

So, what do you think of my theories on when to use the overbet, and what do you think of the two hands I posted?

Limper is 34/2/1.8 and donks 33%.
Btn is 28/21/3.7 and 4bets a lot.

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $268.58
CO: $188.75
BTN: $291.45
Hero (SB): $268.12
BB: $200.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is SB with A J
1 fold, CO calls $2, BTN raises to $9, Hero calls $8, 1 fold, CO calls $7

Flop: ($29.00) 9 A 7 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $29.00, BTN folds, Hero calls $29

Turn: ($87.00) J (2 players)
Hero ????

Villain is 29/23/3.2. Folds to 57% of 3bets. Has not 4bet. (which tells me now to probably just 3bet this hand)
Cbets 79%.

His name tells me he's probably 2p2. He hasn't been that aggressive when not the aggressor in the hand if that makes sense. Ie, when not pfr he just calls a lot, doesn't raise cbets, c/r, etc.

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $258.40
Hero (BB): $200.00
UTG: $235.08
MP: $264.73
CO: $189.00
BTN: $125.30

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with K Q
1 fold, MP raises to $7, 3 folds, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($15.00) 9 T 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10.00, Hero raises to $28, MP calls $18

Turn: ($71.00) K (2 players)
Hero ????

Small sample with villian. 57/14. Obviously a donky.

This hand is from a while ago, but I basically raise sb completions 100% at first, so if he's open complete before I would have raised him before.

Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $192.00
CO: $275.40
BTN: $190.40
SB: $167.04
Hero (BB): $231.95

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with 8 A
3 folds, SB calls $1, Hero raises to $7, SB calls $5

Flop: ($14.00) 9 8 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($14.00) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $14.00, Hero calls $14

River: ($42.00) A (2 players)
SB bets $42.00, Hero ????

Agreed though in scenario 2 there are plenty of regs who will float to bluff the turn and not follow up on the river when they miss. Against those guys I'd c/c the turn a lot and against guys who are bluffing the river as well with good frequency I'd take Devin's line.

I really don't like overbetting against regulars. I think it's a difficult line to balance and should really be reserved for value against the type of reg that can't fold TPGK

Against fish I pretty much do it when I think he's strong and I'm stronger and I'm pretty sure he can't fold. For some players that unfoldable hand is top pair or worse, for some it's the flush on a paired board. I really dislike the thought of overbet bluffing a fish unless he's the weakest tightest of donks postflop. Except in extreme examples, such as you shove for 1.5x pot or more, I don't think an overbet generates more folds than a more normal sized bet would. Or at least not enough extra folds to warrant risking so much more money.

Personally I prefer to value bet big against fish and keep things smaller when I'm bluffing.

For hand 1: I think AJ should be a 3bet virtually always BB v BTN 3 handed. Postflop his bet sizing on every street is really fishy. The board is pretty wet and he's betting pretty damn small on flop and turn. Given the number of draws and how shorthanded the game is, I don't think he's value betting a very strong hand in this manner on the flop and turn. The only hand that I can really see taking this line for value flop-river is 6xdd. Because it's possible he's making a "he can't possibly call this" bluff and since he's a regular it will be of great value to know what he takes this line with flop and turn, I'd call and make note of whatever he has.

I like flop. I don't think it's terribly likely he donks for pot with a flush draw so I think that leaves him with a lot of Ax hands and two pairs. I'd check shove the turn and if he checks it behind value bet the river pretty big.

Yeah I usually 3bet or fold this pre. I think I'd bet something really small on the turn like $34. He probably puts you on QJ a lot regardless of what you do on the turn so I want to bet some amount that he'll be too curious to fold to with JT.

I'd just bet the flop against a donk. He's going to float you with all kinds of broadway and ace high hands as well as any pair.

Unless villain can take this line and bet/call the river with more than 9 combinations of worse hands, you need to just flat. Note that 8 such combos can be reached by including just all remaining combos of AK. It's pretty close but based on the number of times I've seen these guys bet call JJ here I'd shove.

Hand 1: Are you flatting the turn to induce a bet from him? What would a CR do on the turn? Since it's a pretty dry board, aside from the FD, isn't that turn card a great card for us? Do guys really overbet this much with 44/22 in this spot, or even AK/AQ?

Hand 2: Is he calling 2 streets down with 88-QQ? Or some Kx hands? Would a bluff like this work in a smaller stakes, you think?

In hand 1 I neglected to include 44 and 22 in his range since I think it's pretty unlikely he bets so small with such big hands on this board. On the flop maybe, but on the turn several of devins pairs pick up gutters and his range is pretty inelastic so I think they can be considerably discounted.

Hand 2 I forgot to say anything about. Devin why such a small bet on the flop? You're deep you want him to at least think his stack is in danger here.

I don't like this bluff for a few reasons

1) The overbet isn't enough bigger than a normal sized bet to generate the desired extra fold equity. If you want to do this I think you need to jam.

2) It's too likely he gets stubborn with Ax here and calls hoping for a chop, especially blind vs bling with an aggro dynamic going on.

Aren't you worried that check shoving kinda over reps our hand when both the flush and straights hit on the turn?

I think c/r the turn would make it pretty easy for him to play perfect against me, and pretty difficult for him to call with worse.

Well, nothing is ever really stake specific, but I probably would give even a solid regular at smaller stakes for thinking as deep as I want him to think when I make this move.

I remember at 100nl making a value shove and instantly hating it, thinking it would be difficult to get called by worse. This was against a guy that seemed solid. He snap snap called with the same hand, which in this scenario was basically a bluff catcher. So, I don't like giving them much credit.

Brett, the small bet is something I've been using more and more on this super dry flop that gets super nailed by my 3bet value range. Your point that it's deep is relevant though, and maybe it's less believable because I would want to get the money in. But, against thinking players I use it both as a bluff, and to induce (if that makes sense). I like to be able to make tiny stabs at these type flops when I miss, and like the idea people will some times spaz when I do have the board crippled. When you hit big, I think checking back looks pretty obv when you follow it with a bet on the turn and river, so I think it I get them to spaz out sometimes, it's worth it. They also fold a lot, so it works as a bluff to, and when i want to double barrel it makes that cheaper as well.

About the size of the overbet, I don't think that matters. Basically the idea isn't to make it so expensive it's hard to call, it's to make him ask 'wtf, why'd he overbet the pot?' If he's just a guy that thinks 'meh, it's not that expensive' or 'meh, that's too expensive' than that's the guy I don't want to do this with.

Your 2) point is very relevant.

Is there a thread with decent info on going from Cash games to Sit N Gos?

Bout second hand DevinLake, is it your standard cb 1/3 pot? Id rather bet half and be done with the hand, I really dont like 3 barrelling crap with A on board against randoms in nl200.

Kinda standard on a AKxr flop in a 3bet pot against a thinking regular...