he still has $1,000 of my money which is fine if he is willing to work with me on the fair deal i offered him

if he has a better idea then i am all ears

but if he is going to dump the stake in $16,000 MU because i called him names then i want my $1,000 back

i have sent him this message 10x today ,but he has not replied once

i also asked for a audit days ago ,still no audit

Congratulations, you just made yourself look like a fool infront of all 2p2 users that read this post

Yes, you backed down so he didn't break the contract. It doesn't look great for him, yes but it's totally different than actually breaking the contract.

You had a third option, stand firm, demand he drops down, and hold him accountable for the makeup if he refuses.

But I'd like to clarify too, didn't he drop stakes? Didn't he end up playing the small stuff you wanted to?

Regardless, if you relented then it's on you, not him. He absolutely has not broken the contract or scammed you in any way and you should stop saying that he has.

Why do you keep saying he is trying to get out of the makeup? He's done nothing but be reasonable about grinding out the makeup even at tiny stake 180s (which is already ridiculous in itself but at least that part is something that the horse just made a mistake of agreeing to going into the contract and has to live with). You are the one who has caused the delay in him grinding that deal by threatening/insulting him and his family.

You are obviously capable of making money at backing but that doesn't mean you aren't a horrible human being. You have some serious anger issues that you need to work on.

Pretty unbelievable chat log. No idea how somebody could think it's ok to treat another person like that. Let alone someone you have a working relationship with. Huge props to the op for having such thick skin. I doubt many would have been able to tolerate such abusive behavior displayed by Demetri.

Demetri, I play poker since forever, I back (and backed) many horses and I also run/own a business completely unrelated to poker where I employ more than 200 people..thousands of history of human interaction with all kind of people. Im also a proud father of two kids and can imagine how I would react if I were in Asylum shoes and you talk to me like that. That is my background to come over this thread and contribute.

As a backer, if I feel a horse is losing long term/not beating the games, I just drop him and assume the risk I took when I first thought he could make me money. You cant pretend every decision you make when you hire a player will be profitable. It doesnt work like that. You should know better than me that you (any backer) dont measure your business based on one horse results, its more something about overall combined results and then leverage your business dropping the ones that may be losing long term...this is something more than natural in any business you would name, not only in something as simple as backing people to play poker.

As a human being, I would be ashamed of myself if I ever talk like that to anyone who works for me, either he does a good or bad job. It doenst matter, it doenst work like that.. every human being has his story, his problems, his strenghts and weakness, no matter how much money they worth, everyone deserves others respect. You should start there to research how bad you been handling this dispute.

Dont take it as an insult when people advice you to seek professional help...theres nothing wrong with that, you wouldnt take it bad if you discover you have a heart failure to listen to someone who tells you to go see a heart specialist..no difference here...isnt just not your heart that fails, is your mind, your brain...nothing wrong seeking help and trying to improve as a human being..

This is why backing requires a 40 percent cut on your end. Because it is something that should be high risk for you. This is why people give you so much money, just for "loans". People can not afford a 16K swing on their own dime. So if this burden of 16k makeup is really just a loan. Why not go to the bank and take out a 16k loan that might charge 10 percent interest long term?

If this is your principle please advertise as is, not a "bait and switch" agreement.
As is being: Loans with a 40 percent interest fee. If not paid, forums/websites will be made about you/life ruined.

I do commend you for coming to your senses and looking at this situation a little bit more clearly. Like I said out of the goodness of my heart I will be willing to help Asylum, which will in turn help you.

Perhaps if I did not see how you treat other horses and tell me "if you don't like the rules GTFO when u clear makeup." I would still be in your stable helping horses and making you the so called "meager profits" that I am capable of producing."

I have found new backers that treat me like a human being (contrary to your beliefs that I could never.)

In some aspects you are the best backer anyone could ask for. In other aspects you are the NUT worst. I advise listening to Matt as he is giving you some sensible advice to better your backing operation which will in turn increase the overall profitability. My work here is done. Best of luck sorting this out with Asylum , but please keep these things in mind for the future. Thank you.

The only person that broke an agreement or scammed the other party in this situation is demetri when he agreed to the 1k/month but then welched on it halfway through the month.

Asylum:
-plays bad, runs up huge MU
-refuses to move down stakes, wants money for IRL stuff
-seems to have no real desire to play anything but big Sunday MTT's
-gets mad at Demetri for threats, justified
-decides threats are reason to threaten to dump stake (his intention all along,imo,after first being told to move down)
-Decide that without trying to bink SM on someone elses dime, that he'd rather not play
-Has little passion to improve, play volume, gets IRL job
-never should have tried a stake with wife and kids needing his full attention 6 days a week
-Did meet volume requirements for stake, at stakes agreed

Demetri:
-Upset that a horse is losing a lot of money
-Tries to move horse down to stakes he can hopefully beat
-Stubbornly tries to get horse to improve, while losing more money
-gets fed up and makes threats against horse and family, anger justified, threats, not so much
-backs off when realizes horse will use this to dump stake
-Should have never backed a horse with wife and kids and no desire

Am I missing anything here? FWIW, it's pretty obv Asylum was never going to be profitable and didn't want the stake anymore. I think these forums are way too sensitive to anger from posters in these situations. I can't believe anyone would think Demetri was out to hurt Asylum, other than ruin his name in a community that he probably wont be a part of much longer.

dude ,as you say about me i can be good and bad the same goes for you

i had you on a decent cut ,i'm 99% sure you won't get better (your own friends told me you should be 50/50)

i'm sure you will get backers more friendly than I ...I have been told you need a cuddle and people to be more sweet to you...i was not like that ,i was more like a boss

you did not like that fair enough,but me and the chat room had to put up with you bitching and wining a lot.so you had your good points ,but you had plenty bad to .

some backers show how much there care for you via the money then give you (your cut),some will be very friendly and rip you of .you will learn this over time ,you are young and very weak minded (backed up by your friends).i feel bad for you ,it is tough out there .they don't care lol

maybe_memories,
Citation needed for horse trying or wanting to dump the stake before demetri welched. Also did you miss that he was playing the 3rs / 4 180 mans exclusively at the end and was on pace for the 1k games/month when this thing blew up?

Just my opinion, man. I think he knew inside that he didn't want to grind those stakes. I agree that there is proof he was on pace and playing the games Demetri specified. I believe he wanted the stake to end because he didn't have the desire to grind out of the MU at those stakes.

I'm not trying to say either is correct. Im trying to say there are more than a few spots where Asylum should have been dropped and by his post, really didn't feel bad or upset. This just leads me to believe that the desire to get out of MU was not there, even tho he was meeting volume requirements. Tho he allegedly was mass tabling on days his did play, so he could take days off.

To be clear, I don't think Demetri handled this well at all. I don't think he handles being scammed well at all. But I've experienced worse treatment from my bosses before at work. If I were Demerti I wouldn't post again about issues with a horse because he has been blacklisted here by the majority.

@demetri You are an embarrassment to yourself, the poker community and your parents (who must wish every day they used some form of contraception), you are a little boy who can not communicate on a normal level who is angry with life maybe because your father didnt pay you enough attention as a child boohoo but anyway EAD *******.

@Asylum Don't ever let this childish boy talk to you or bring your family into a conversation again like that, if he does you should cut all ties off with him and send him a big 16,000 FUs.

Gl grinding out of Mu & finding a job.

So if Demetri is so horrible for what he said, what does this make you?

Call me weak minded all you want and quite personally I couldn't give less of a **** what you think about me. I know that I mean nothing to you other than the amount of money I make. (Hence why I stopped even attempting to talk to you.) A weak minded person would say how great of a backer you are etc/ when they don't actually believe that. If other horses were not afraid of you I am sure they would do similar things that I am doing. Essentially you treat horses in regards to how much money they make/lose you, with no regard to their life situation/their quality of a person/or their goodness to mankind. This represents a completely dystopian society where money is held over everything and quality of the human being does not mean ****.
I couldn't care less what my one friend that you have on skype says about me as I am 100 percent sure he with holds the truth from you, as he cba to deal with your antics and just tells you what he wants you to hear.

Now you can either man up and acknowledge that what I am saying to you is valid, and stop trying to bring needless/false/adjusted information into the forums, and use it to better your business. Perhaps even issue me an apology (never seen you do this in 1 year.)

OR

We can continue this battle of wits in which you are unarmed and have little to no credibility/respect from the community and post facts about me that me or anybody else do not give a single **** about.

If you choose the first option which also happens to be the most mature option I would gladly talk this out with you and perhaps give you some support in the forums. However, if you continue to treat me like dirt do not respect anything but the same from me.

Any rational and honorable person would put their family above poker in this way.

The issue is not with the horse or the backer per se, but the contract:

No you don't.

This should void the contract, and void all contracts that include such a ridiculous clause.

Otherwise we get uneducated (or educated) backers signing uneducated (and -ev) horses, the horse hits either downswing because variance or they aren't good enough, a then the backer traps them in a horrible impossible lifestyle.

I don't blame either sides morality on the issue, but it can't be setup like this, its terrible for the game, all aspects of this are terrible for the game.

Polite.

Sorry but insinuating that person should never have been born and saying his parents didn't love him is ******* low. Esp when you have no idea who the person is.

the thread became this a long time ago

how DARE i insult a guy that is in $16,000 MU and breaking rules etc etc

but it is ok for people to insult me cause they don't agree with my methods

eye for a eye i guess ,but some need to look at themselves as they look at me

Seems like he should have dropped waaay before this as it was obv that he wasn't goin to be a profitable investment
It's pretty much impossible for op to clear 16k in mu grinding 3$/180s
Seems dropping horse before dumping more
Bad $ in the investment is best
Guess it's best to dump him @ 16k rather than later on @20 cuz there's no way I see him all of a sudden on a sick heater in these conditions

Exactly. Such a clause practically turns the horse into the backer's personal slave.

Backing should be seen as an investment. Not all investments work out. As Demetri himself said, games are tough and $15 abi guys can go on huge downers. You can't just have a player slave away for months or years in 180s because he's bad/runs bad and you're not comfortable investing more into him. You need to cut your loses and move on.

That being said, Asylum is also at fault here for signing the contract in the first place. And he's also at fault for refusing to move down, despite the contract stipulating it (as ridiculous as the clause is)

Personally I see both sides to be equally at fault, although Demetri did himself a huge disfavor by going about it the way he did. Turning the horse into a victim and all the negative publicity this thread received may cost him long term more than the 15k MU.

Unless you personally insulted Youtrippin, I can't see how he has any right to post that. Some seem to look at what you said as if you said it to them. There is a lot of antagonistic posts ITT that there is no need for.

Its because you know, people are human beings and when they see actual chat logs of someone doing what demetri did to a guy who is CLEARLY not trying to scam him it riles them up.

Its so obvious he doesnt give a **** how he treats people, and is also completely un-equipped to have a rational discussion so why should people be polite to him.

A lot of people have made non insulting posts ITT (Not me because I think he is a toxic moron and people like him hold us back as a species) and he responds in exactly the same way.

dude you know and i know you have been trolling me for a long time now

every since i turned you down for a stake,you have just made a thread to get me banned from 2+2

it is unreal your hate for me ,scary how much you are trying to screw me over

i did the last longer bet that ended up taking up a lot of my time and i added a large amount of my own money and held a massive amount of money for the community.i then payed everyone out in full and did this all out of kindness

you still have not worked out that i treated as i'm treated ,would a bad guy do that last longer and risk loads of his own money for everyone elses pleasure ???

but yet you still came into that thread and started berating me AGAIN

some maybe will start to look at you as being silly ,you are here going crazy at someone and insulting them because they insulted someone

Maybe I'm just used to people treating other people like ****, I live in America after all, but I don't see how that gives anyone a right to do the same. It doesn't say much for humans that some people are willing to go as low or lower than Demetri to prove some kind of point.