How did wookie alienate Bruce from 2+2? Why is wookie's acquiescence necessary to progress along a reasonable way forward?

Under new modding rules would we be able to call black and Mexican posters racist, or does that prohibition apply to everyone?

To get it clear that you think it's preferable that Bruce is alienated from 2+2 rather than let him 'get away' with continuing his 15+ years of contributing to 2+2 while also continuing to mod the probability forum - nothing could make that preferable in your eyes (with the possible exception of some extreme apology that you didn't decide was insincere)

I'd much rather find out that's being unfair on you but either way.

exxxxxxxxxxxxxtreeeeemmmmmmmeeeeeee apology.

looooooooooooooooooooooooool chez

Wookie can be specific about what would have sufficed.

As he finds everything so insincere I've no idea how he would believe anything anyway but the last example he gave of the required apology wasn't remotely reasonable - I'm allowing he may have been exaggerating but then again Its not clear that he meant any apology would be enough for him to prefer Bruce 'gets away' with continuing to contribute to 2+2 and continuing to mod the probability forum

Sure, I grant that Bruce burned some bridges and consequently had virtually every mod on 2+2 think he should not be a mod. Posting a bunch of racist crap, threatening users, abusing mod powers, hurling insults at everyone, and insisting that everyone else is the problem tends to do that.

Multiple mods agreed that Bruce's explanations of his racist posts were insincere.

^ somehow that's not quite clear about your preference.

Just a straightforward you preferred him alienated would do. Nothing was more preferable than that to you.

C'mon lets put an end to the dancing about if that's how it was.

Did Wookie want Bruce alienated from 2+2 (and for what definition of "alienated"?) or did he merely want racism to never go unchallenged and whether the act of being challenged made Bruce feel alienated was irrelevant?

If Bruce had posted racist crap followed up by insincere explanations, but avoided threatening users and abusing mod powers, do you think he would never have been de-greened?

He can still "get away" with posting here. That aside, on top of taking care not to make BruceZ feel alienated, would Wookie also have to like BruceZ, make him feel welcome, and value him as a good person in his heart?

I think Bruce's racist posts and especially his ensuing blowup are unbecoming of a 2+2 mod. If he expects to be able post racist things and ban anyone who calls it racist regardless of the forum the criticism is in, and that we should all forget a consistent pattern of poor judgment and immaturity at every opportunity when faced with criticism, because of his other posts, then I am glad he is still not a moderator.

Ha, wish I had actually thought of that. Pretty good.

This registers a 0 on the self awareness scale, particularly since Wookie actually answered the question directly with a statement instead of just ignoring it and JAQng off some more as our pseudointellectual shut-in friends would have done.

In the spirit of not dancing around chez, how about a direct answer to any and all of the following.

What was Bruce's actual apology (citation still needed)?

What was the "unreasonable apology" Mr Wookie would have needed yesterday and how would it differ?


What is the extreeeeeeeeeemmmmmmmeeeee apology Mr Wookie apparently needs today and how would it differ?

Bonus question: How did Wookie personally alienate Bruce and name at least one (1) specific thing Wookie did or posted that you didn't like and at least one (1) specific thing Wookie could or should have done instead that would have led to a better outcome.

See Wookie, Chez was right all along, you want people whose behavior offends you to be alienated from here. Check and mate. I bet now you're gonna say you prefer to hang out and converse with people you find likeable.

Now, now, lets not concede quite so much to the shut-in Matlock. Wookie just didn't want him as mod for completely reasonable reasons (not that he had any real say in the matter, Mat was quite willing to ignore his request prior to Bruce alienating, oh, everyone save the broken souls that are the SMP crowd). He didn't GAF if Bruce posted his math solutions or JAQ'd off all day in SMP as he did before.

PS: is it some kind of secret that the mods were put off by Bruce, didn't want him to moderate, and didn't really care if as a result Bruce cried and went home? Mat explained why Bruce got demodded, he pissed off enough mods that Mat was worried about mass exodus if Bruce stayed on as mod.

Now, why we are supposed to ignore Bruce's racism and weigh his contributions more heavily than the many dedicated volunteers who Bruce offended or threatened? Who knows. Maybe Chez will get to that by month 48 of the whining about the great injustice of our time.

Thanks getting there - There was an 'if' that I know doesn't apply - if he had stated explicitly and clearly that he didn't expect any of that, would that make any difference to your view? Also no-one is saying you should forget anything

Given that you would still prefer him alienated from 2+2 rather than continuing to contribute and continuing to mod probability?

He can still contribute whatever he wants, and I can't stop him. Like I said, the only way I would know he decided to post again would likely be that you stopped whining.

I wasn't right all along. I tended to believe wookie would think things had got out of hand and that even though Bruce hadn't gone far enough for him he had gone some of the way.

There's no gotcha! we've come this far might as well finish.

We were so close. it's not about what you could or can do to Bruce. It's your preferences at the time (and now)

How many times do I have to tell you I don't care? Do I personally have to invite Bruce in three times before he can enter?

What I think should have been done differently is that the issue should have been taken to the moderators forum before being taken to politics. Then ATF if the outcome from the mod forum discussion was unsatisfactory. How we deal with racist posts elsewhere on the internet should be different from how we deal with racist posts by a representative of a forum we are also representatives of.

It had been claimed that these posts were somehow symptomatic of how SMP does its thing, if this is so and I'll happily admit to being somewhat less than impressed with how it does it, where were the complaints in ATF, where were the concerns raised in the mod forum? Like a racist moderator I think worthy of more serious treatment than some other racist poster on 2p2 or elsewhere. Taking it to the moderators forum first treats it seriously, it avoids the charge that it's motivated by some non existent internecine dispute between forums that isn't helped by pvn making it clear he was more interested in showing up the thought process in SMP than he was in actually having Bruce demodded and it probably goes someway towards keeping this whole ****ing discussion where it's best served in ATF.

And none of this excuses either Bruce's original post or his subsequent response, neither MrWookie nor Tom, nor anyone other than Bruce is responsible for his demodding. Bruce is responsible for his posts, the original post was racist, his response worse and the subsequent explanation unconvincing, like if you get pulled devil's advocating you know why, and he's responsible for only actually apologising for the trouble he caused 2p2 not the offence caused by his original post.

Please do. With all this talk about BruceZ this thread won't be complete without the man of the hour gracing us with his presence.

Sorry i must have confused you, I'll have to write it out more fully each time:

We were at the stage where you said:

and I asked you:

You responded with what you can do but we were talking about your preferences.

I have no preference. That's what "I don't care" means.