So, how do you get your hands on one of these Borgata poker room rule books which allow you to play a hand with one card? Is the rule book up-to-date? (We have played HORSE with some interesting rules but no disputes have come up...)

Perhaps persistent moreso than stubborn. I defended my position because my position makes sense to me and apparently to all other casinos


You're saying that The Borgata is the only casino you know of with this rule. Perhaps The Borgata is incorrect in having this rule (if in fact that is the rule) and all other casinos are correct in declaring the hand dead?

Why is this a good rule? Why is allowing a player to play Hold-em with one card a good rule? No answers or opinions yet; just comments about stubbornness (which is useful when trying to get to the bottom of things) and my not knowing what I was talking about (I suppose all other casinos don't know what they're talking about either).




I'll try to pick one up at The Borgata. Years ago I got the poker rule book for the Taj. I probably still have it. I'll search for that one. I'm going to assume The Borgata has rule books available to the public. How else would we know what's what if they don't?

I've played in plenty of poker games and I've never run into a situation where a player had only one card at showdown. I suspect people demand two cards when they see they have one No player was ever allowed to play a one card Hold-em hand if he wasn't able to figure out he only had one card to begin with.

I'd like to figure out why this is allowed (if it is). I see no good reason for it, and plenty of trouble with it. I don't wish to speculate much more until I see the rule in print for myself.

The question was asked specifically about borgata and you said you "know" that you can't play one card. Fwiw, I think this rule is fine. Why would you kill a hand when no possible advantage can be gained?

And i highly doubt borgata will just hand you their full rulebook; I've NEVER been in a poker room that would do that.

I still know that a player can't play with only one card. I can't help it if there's a screwy rule

"Why would you kill a hand when no possible advantage can be gained?"

There is an advantage gained, by the other players. What if the player with one card is a beginner and doesn't realize that he's being allowed to play with a disadvantage? The Borgata is allowing him to play with this disadvantage, and also allowing the other players to play with an advantage against this player, and no other card room that I know of allows this because it sounds awfully illegal to me. This sets up The Borgata for a lawsuit.

Rules are established for reasons, not to just establish rules.

Consider this: aside from the button occasionally getting only one card, what is another way in which a player can end up with one card? When another player accidentally takes the card and gives himself three cards. What if that player looks at all 3 cards after 2 players have acted? That player's hand is now dead, and I'm sure you would agree. How can the three card hand be dead, while the one card hand is allowed to play? How can a hand foul another hand by an illegal transfer of cards, yet not itself be fouled? It's not logical. It makes no sense, and it doesn't look right.

If a Blackjack player accidentally grabs three facedown cards in a one deck game (which the Taj occasionally has, or had), would the player with one card be allowed to play that single card against the dealer if that player said he would stand with the one card? That player has no advantage over the house, but I assure you no casino would allow it. It's not in the rules for a good reason: lawsuit. If the player loses, the player would be losing with an irregular hand. The player was allowed to play that irregular hand against the casino at an even greater disadvantage than the other players had. The casino can't legally do that.

Take it a step further now. How can the casino legally allow you to play at an advantage against another poker player by allowing him to limit the amount of cards he can play and thus allowing him to play at a disadvantage against you? In my opinion the casino/card room cannot legally do this.

If this is indeed a rule, I urge them to reconsider it.



"And i highly doubt borgata will just hand you their full rulebook; I've NEVER been in a poker room that would do that."

Sure, all poker rooms have secret rules that you as a player can't know about, or, the poker room has an obligation to tell you every one of it's rules if you ask them (usually they have what's known as a poker rule book, just like the one I got from Taj in 1994). Which sounds more likely to you? Which sounds more legal to you?

Which sounds like something the State of New Jersey would sanction, and which sounds like something the State of New Jersey, or any other state for that matter, would not sanction?

...and end this discussion starting....NOW

Why? It's starting to get interesting now.

We aren't discussing frivolities. This is a serious look at a possibly illegal rule. If you can't read past my first sentence and give your opinion regarding this discussion, why are you bothering to post? And not only are you posting nothing of value, you're demanding that discussion be stopped.

This thread is the proper venue for this type of discussion.

The funny thing is that I was in the room around a month ago when they did this. They had three games running and a list with over 10 names, so they turned our game (which had been the must move into the main game) into a second main game. Four players started howling about how horrible this was, and the guy at the top of the list started wailing about how he had been waiting hours to get to the main game, and it wasn't fair. The floor said he would go at the top of the transfer list, so he'd be able to move, but he still wouldn't shut up.

I stayed at the table all night. Here is what happened. First, by the time a seat opened at the original main game (hours later) all of the players who had been complaining about the elimination of the must move designation were gone. Second, the two main games stayed balanced and were playing throughout the night. Eventually, the games seamlessly merged together around 4 am.

I'd really urge the floor to ignore a bunch of whiners who will be asleep when the games go short. Don't have more than one must move table on a weekend.

Ya they daisy chain the 5/10 no limit too, I dont understand it, or like it.

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Are you still here? If so look for me.

Stan

Stayed at the B over the Holiday weekend and had a great time..but...We check in around 2:30pm on Fri and when we get to the room the cleaning lady was still there. I am thinking WTF, but she was just about to leave so we didnt wait too long. Then we get in the room and kick off our shoes when we notice that the carpet was soaking wet in some spots. I go downstairs to complain and they give us another room right away, but seem to care less and dont apologize, at least they were quick about it. Next room we get to, the toilet bowl looks pretty dirty, could be just rust stains, but not usual Borgata cleanliness, at least the room was comped that night and the carpet was dry. Stayed at the B quite a few times and never had any issues. The rooms are still nice but are definitely beginning to wear.

I played 1-2, and was noticing what I thought to be marks on the cards, like they were not manufactured properly or they were being worn. It took a few deals to look and see because it was hard to tell other than looking at my own cards, but they were definitely faded in spots, and most cards I saw had faded spots or areas where the "ink" of the cards was flaking off. I was going to say something but I had been drinking, was tired, and it wasnt long before they came to replace the cards. I definitely should have said something, but didnt think anyone was using it to their advantage including myself, and didnt want to slow the game down at the time (5am).

Anybody notice this with the cards? Maybe the batch we had were just bad cards. The new cards we got seemed fine, so I am not sure.

The phrase "arguing with a XXXX is like wrestling with a pig in mud" seems so appropriate. You know, cause your handle...

Anyway, you are a little bit crazy. Or rather you debate like a crazy person.

You are definitely a "I think it should be this way, so it has to be this way" type of person that uses selective logic to support his arguments.

So whether or not you think taking part of a pot with less than the required number of cards is impossible, it has happened at the Borgata and Taj. And whether you think it was a wrong ruling or not, it has happened. So the original question of whether this has happened or not seems settled. The secondary question of how credible a source of info you are also seems to have been settled.

This should sort of end now or move to a non-Borgata thread (unless one enjoys the nonsensical back and forth.) No one's going to change their mind and the tangents that come out are just nuts and look like a lot of noise.

Yes. Always find marks on the cards and I'm talking about imperfections in the ink! (Not just the creases which are very common). And I don't scrutinize each card looking for them either. If i did I'd probably find a lot more of them.

Sounds like the first dealer made the correct the decision. But the 2nd time both the dealer and floor person were incorrect.

I think that as long as dealers and floor people are making incorrect rulings that players should be able to see the rulebook so if players want to they can invest their own time to understand the rules of the room.

It's possible that the issue was that there was significant action in one case, but not the other, so the right decision may have been made in both cases. It's unlikely, but not impossible to imagine the floor declared a misdeal after significant action had occured.

Anybody notice this with the cards?

***

Sometimes the card shufflers are hard on the cards. I have never had a problem getting a card replaced if it might compromise the integrity of the game. There is really nothing to worry about here as the floor and dealers are attentive and sensitive to replace any cards that need to be changed.

coming down this weekend looking to shake up the 40/80 limit games from the nitfest they can be.
if anyone else will be there and reads the forum come say hi. i'm the exceedingly handsome gentlemen who will be ordering voda gimlits every 5 minutes

!

Rule books have always and always will be available to anyone who asks for one.

Stan

I don't have the rule book, but I know you can also win a pot with one card at the Taj; a friend of mine did so just a few months ago.

Not sure what the circumstances were but the correct ruling could have been made for both hands.

Hand #1. According to the Borgata Rule Book, MISDEALS 3.F A player discovers he has too few cards after substantial action occurred. He will be permitted to play with a short hand.

Hand #2. According to the Borgata Rule Book, MISDEALS 2.D A misdeal will be determined when dealing too few cards to a player, except when that player is due to get the top card of the deck. No substantial action.

Stan

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Stan

Stanstrickland@theborgata.com

This is pretty uncommon. The typical stance among room managers is that anyone who wants a rulebook wants it to shoot angles, and barring that, they may misinterpret something causing problems down the road, but I like the borgata's decision to be open with them. Who should i ask for one?

Thank you. I appear to be a good lawyer, then. I'm actually not trying to be sarcastic. It wasn't my wish or intention to create any bad feelings here.

Well, lol, either that or you don't fully understand what I'm trying to convey, therefore I must be crazy. Let's settle on we don't fully understand each other's point of view. It sounds like a good compromise to me.


Or I could be an "I believe I understand the underlying principle here, and something seems to be amiss, therefore let me ask some questions about it" type of person. I got paid well for doing that in the past

I'll try to do some research on laws/statutes/regulations regarding casinos and the specific way they are required to carry out their business (hopefully, nowhere near as seriously as it appears to sound). For some reason I currently find it fascinating, but not to worry, I'm not going to post here about it.


And I thank the people who answered this for me (though I'll have to speak to the manager of the Taj poker room to verify that casino's policy).


Hey, come on. Yes, it seems you've come to a conclusion regarding me and I'm sure everyone's glad you've settled that for them


Of course. Since you think it has to be this way, it should be this way, besides, specifically responding to my honest questions/musings just a few posts up and showing me just how badly I misinterpreted things would indeed be nonsensical and something that you would never consider doing. Or you could just say you don't feel like it

Obviously, the hundreds, or was it thousands? of people who have posted in response to this will not be swayed.

Like I said, if we don't understand each other's point of view, we aren't in a position to say what's nuts and what's noise. I sincerely don't wish to offend you or anyone on this forum (and I apologize if I did so intentionally), but neither do I wish to not defend my position. However, I will drop it.

I did make a mistake and I admit that. My mistake was that I posted as soon as I thought I found an "error" in the rules, and I should have contacted the appropriate people with that information instead. My intention here was to help, not hinder.

I do wish to thank you, and I say this sincerely, for your comments and for providing input. And I wish you, and everyone else, a good day.

Multi-Quote challenge accepted & completed by Blue Pig.

Will be at B next weekend...can't wait to get back to the tables after a few weeks off to knock some of the honeydo list down!

Yes, sometimes I think I just need to pat myself on the back, and, unfortunately, I attempt to do it on some forum and just wind up annoying the heck out of everyone. If that's true, you don't know how much I despise myself for it.

After last week's poker performance I feel like I'm mentally challenged, and that may not be far from the truth.