Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Heads Up Limit Discussion of heads up limit Texas Hold'em Forum is closed; read only.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2010, 11:20 PM   #176
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurderbyNumbers123 View Post
wait i just reread the whole thing srsly are u not calling down the pair of aces hand ???

folding in that situation seems far more exploitable than calling
Nah, you has to be wrong here.

OTR has spoken.

He said top pair has 1 chance in 20 against hyper aggressive and agree individual.
So it must be so.
copoka is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:20 PM   #177
Zee German Dax
newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Looks like you benefiting from knowing my hand a little bit, dont you.
When you dont know my hand and I check raise flop I tell you that I have an A, card that you most likely do not have.
Now i'm following through on a turn having a lead while representing big hand and you call it abysmal?

Do yourself a favor, brush up some basics.
I do benefit from knwoing your hand, that's true. If I didn't know your hand I wouldn't know whether you made a good bet or a bad one. But as it is, I know you made a bad bet.
Zee German Dax is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:25 PM   #178
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,339
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Do yourself a favor, brush up some basics.
lol
OnTheRail15 is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:25 PM   #179
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,339
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Nah, you has to be wrong here.

OTR has spoken.

He said top pair has 1 chance in 20 against hyper aggressive and agree individual.
So it must be so.
You're right. It might be less.
OnTheRail15 is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:28 PM   #180
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee German Dax View Post
You don't have 42% equity here. It's more in the 35%-37% range depending on the exact range you give him.
Do you have a stove?

Please take random range, take away all aces, put the board As 5s 3c in and stove it vs Qd 7d. Then come back with results.

Quote:
He did in fact try to bluff you, even tho for some reason he waited till the river to do it.
I dont even know how to respond here.
copoka is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:30 PM   #181
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,339
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Do you have a stove?

Please take random range, take away all aces, put the board As 5s 3c in and stove it vs Qd 7d. Then come back with results.

You want to take away all aces why?
OnTheRail15 is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:42 PM   #182
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee German Dax View Post
I do benefit from knwoing your hand, that's true. If I didn't know your hand I wouldn't know whether you made a good bet or a bad one. But as it is, I know you made a bad bet.
So, now when you know all there is to know about that hand, you are saying that betting Q7 vs 74 is not such a hot idea?

Just to finish the whole thing off.

Let me take back my advise about brushing up basics.
I have much better advise.

Please stop playing poker for now and hire OTR as a coach.
That would be a best dessision of your poker life up to date.
You will benefit greatly and some day, i'm sure, will send me a flowers or something as a token of aprecciation.
copoka is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:45 PM   #183
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
You want to take away all aces why?
Its so hard for him to have one playing any 2.
copoka is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:47 PM   #184
MurderbyNumbers123
old hand
 
MurderbyNumbers123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: easy street
Posts: 1,462
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Its so hard for him to have one playing any 2.
lol ive been watching this whole argument as ive been tilt posting

u are insane

Last edited by MurderbyNumbers123; 03-05-2010 at 11:47 PM. Reason: what do u think a range is?
MurderbyNumbers123 is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:53 PM   #185
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,339
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Its so hard for him to have one playing any 2.
....

Last edited by OnTheRail15; 03-05-2010 at 11:53 PM. Reason: level amirite?
OnTheRail15 is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:55 PM   #186
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurderbyNumbers123 View Post
lol ive been watching this whole argument as ive been tilt posting

u are insane
I mean on a flop, ofc.

Once i see the A on a flop its a very good assumption, that its hard for him to have an A if he plays any 2.
Basically, I'm quoting Bryce here.
Should I dig up an exact qoute and situation? I will.
copoka is offline  
Old 03-05-2010, 11:56 PM   #187
MurderbyNumbers123
old hand
 
MurderbyNumbers123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: easy street
Posts: 1,462
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
I mean on a flop, ofc.

Once i see the A on a flop its a very good assumption, that its hard for him to have an A if he plays any 2.
but thats the whole thing about ranges... you have to include it as part of his range even if its not likely he has it. Just as you wouldn't discount any other card.
MurderbyNumbers123 is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:01 AM   #188
shaolinstyle
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 82
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

LOL @ copoka....OTR i don't know why you even waste your time man.
shaolinstyle is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:07 AM   #189
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurderbyNumbers123 View Post
but thats the whole thing about ranges... you have to include it as part of his range even if its not likely he has it. Just as you wouldn't discount any other card.
Why?
Why discounting is out of question?

Ok, maybe not 100%.

As an extreme. Would not you cap every street with KK if flop came AAA?
copoka is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:14 AM   #190
Fatal Fog
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 161
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

The fact that there is an A on the flop makes it 25% less likely that he holds an ace in his hand ... but poker stove already takes this into account. It is kind of the whole point of stove. You input a range of possible hands that your opponent could conceivably play this way and poker stove determines your equity (partly by discounting cards that are on the flop). You don't take the aces out of your hand first.
Fatal Fog is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:23 AM   #191
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

I see.

So it is for equity calculation of the ORIGINAL range i give him.
And plays i might chose based based on what i put him on with new information is another issue.
Right?
copoka is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:33 AM   #192
MurderbyNumbers123
old hand
 
MurderbyNumbers123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: easy street
Posts: 1,462
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Why?
Why discounting is out of question?

Ok, maybe not 100%.

As an extreme. Would not you cap every street with KK if flop came AAA?
well seeing as you haven't chosen value or bluffing as the point of your checkraise there doesn't seem to be much of a comparison

I can say that in the AAA hand i am going for value, and wont stop until I feel that I am no longer ahead based on various things. Against some players I will slow down absolutely. Actually against very few players will i cap that for 3 streets.

But for your q7 hand I think that you havent chosen if you are going for value or to take him off a worse hand. Either way you can't discount the ace more than u would the 5 when u are stoving something... seems obvious


But you say that you just want to take him off the hand, and I think OTR's whole spiel is kinda a bout the idea of not making mistakes against your opponents range. You are just kind of doing the classic first level thinking mistake where you aren't even thinking about what hands you will be folding out or getting value out of. Its those circumstances that really affect your bottom line in the end.

You can show down q hi by the way there is no rule against it, as a matter of fact showing down q hi will cost just 1sb more than c/r and barreling the turn. Just food for thought.


And by the way I am not on the anti copoka train, I still think you are right on the first hand to be reasonably tenacious with the ace against all but the most face up opponents. Its just so exploitable honestly and i know its a cliche but it is limit hold em and you have an ace with a likely chop or you lose/beat a bluff.

Last edited by MurderbyNumbers123; 03-06-2010 at 12:35 AM. Reason: Read the book Theory of Poker if you haven't or reread it. its perfect for correcting this sort of thought process
MurderbyNumbers123 is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:48 AM   #193
chinamaniac
Pooh-Bah
 
chinamaniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the Internet
Posts: 3,717
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

:facepalm
chinamaniac is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 01:10 AM   #194
SenorKeeed
mew mew mew
 
SenorKeeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 37,641
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

OMG this is amazing.
SenorKeeed is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 01:17 AM   #195
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurderbyNumbers123 View Post
well seeing as you haven't chosen value or bluffing as the point of your checkraise there doesn't seem to be much of a comparison

I can say that in the AAA hand i am going for value, and wont stop until I feel that I am no longer ahead based on various things. Against some players I will slow down absolutely. Actually against very few players will i cap that for 3 streets.

But for your q7 hand I think that you havent chosen if you are going for value or to take him off a worse hand. Either way you can't discount the ace more than u would the 5 when u are stoving something... seems obvious


But you say that you just want to take him off the hand, and I think OTR's whole spiel is kinda a bout the idea of not making mistakes against your opponents range. You are just kind of doing the classic first level thinking mistake where you aren't even thinking about what hands you will be folding out or getting value out of. Its those circumstances that really affect your bottom line in the end.

You can show down q hi by the way there is no rule against it, as a matter of fact showing down q hi will cost just 1sb more than c/r and barreling the turn. Just food for thought.


And by the way I am not on the anti copoka train, I still think you are right on the first hand to be reasonably tenacious with the ace against all but the most face up opponents. Its just so exploitable honestly and i know its a cliche but it is limit hold em and you have an ace with a likely chop or you lose/beat a bluff.
TY for your comments.
Equity calculation point is well taken and appreciated.

As far as whole issue here, it all seems a bit strange.

I honestly dont remember ever seeing anyone folding in a situation like hand 1
and yet sophisticated argument is given why it is such an wrong play.

C'raises like in a hand #2 are all over training sites and forums with, at very least, metagame consideration label on them or, depending on who poster or coach is, marked as sophisticated plays. New era thinking, so to speak.

Here, from small mistakes it has been blown up to a reason I cant get out of ugly break even stretch.

Life time ev in both cases, given the relative rarity and deferent chances and equities vs different playing styles, is negligible one way or another, but chance to showcase superior poker wisdom is taken and at the end it looks like breaking cardinal rules or something.

In fact, we are talking really small margins here.

Really small margins considering that after certain threshold in the game, the turn of a card will make so much larger impact on a bottom line than whether you make or lose 4.6 bets over 1000 hands due to finer understanding of a super fine aspects or lack thereof.

Last edited by copoka; 03-06-2010 at 01:35 AM.
copoka is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 01:38 AM   #196
checktheriver
adept
 
checktheriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 856
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
Not sure what you mean checktheriver but I hope you're saying that 88 and A2 are exactly the same hand there. If that's what you mean, after NW raises the river that's an excellent and true point.
Not exactly the same, when you have A2 your opponent was floating with Q2s less often. If you were just saying that neverwin isn't bluffing in this spot, that's disappointing
checktheriver is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 01:42 AM   #197
randomrules
adept
 
randomrules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the mouth of a desert
Posts: 1,193
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurderbyNumbers123 View Post
lol ive been watching this whole argument as ive been tilt posting
fwiw, i puked a little for you on the diamond frush hand.

/not smart or good enough to get involved in the rest of this thread.
randomrules is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 01:44 AM   #198
MurderbyNumbers123
old hand
 
MurderbyNumbers123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: easy street
Posts: 1,462
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

hey copoka how many hands is ur b/e stretch
MurderbyNumbers123 is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 01:57 AM   #199
copoka
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 547
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

about 100k

Basically and unfortunately, just the way you describe.
No way to win.
Rather noway to win a large pot.
I call it unbalanced coolers.
If I flop srt8 and win I make 3 times less than I lose when I flop str8 and lose etc.
Faking enormous drag. And I try to be very objective about it, believe me.

I wish you never go that far in it.
copoka is offline  
Old 03-06-2010, 01:58 AM   #200
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,339
Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by checktheriver View Post
Not exactly the same, when you have A2 your opponent was floating with Q2s less often. If you were just saying that neverwin isn't bluffing in this spot, that's disappointing
I think he's bluffing sometimes. Just not more than 1 time in 8.
OnTheRail15 is offline  

 
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive