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Old 03-05-2010, 10:28 AM   #126
Michaelooch
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Apologies in advance if this is not allowed

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Last edited by Michaelooch; 03-05-2010 at 10:30 AM. Reason: add last year's winner
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:55 PM   #127
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefut View Post
Actually, I was only half kidding when I posted this. I haven't studied game theory since my undergrad days and haven't looked at the Alberta stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised if donking was part of a GTO strategy.
Right, I mean my main point was that there are likely innumerable GTO strategies, rather than one "solution".

Quote:
Originally Posted by chesterfieldking View Post
For what reason would neverwin not deserve to be made fun of? Hes a complete degenerate and a very dishonest one at that.
Sorry, remind me again why gambling degenerates are good targets for chat abuse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarnoV View Post
You don't need to solve LHE to deduce that donking can be part of a GTO strategy.
Right.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:14 PM   #128
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

HUHU LHE has not been solved. That is a fact.

Whether or not there are poker bots out there that can compete with the best players is arguable. They will probably continue to get better and eventually be better than every human in the world. This however doesn't mean that the game has been solved.

This is exactly the state of chess today. You can run a bot on your laptop that will beat the best player in the world. Chess is nowhere near being mathematically solved.

But what most people mean is that once bots are better than everyone and common enough, people will stop playing poker on the internet. This will obviously destroy internet poker, and might even have a backlash of destroying the live game. At least that is what happened with backgammon.

Btw, backgammon is a solved game in the sense that they have figured out the optimal play in every possible situation.

Same story, albeit different methods, for connect 4, checkers, and even tick-tack-toe, although it's trivial to solve that game.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:33 PM   #129
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Six Finger Nate View Post
Yea I railed that match for a few minutes out of curiosity.

With no provocation, you made fun of him as soon as he sat down, typing something like "so you're playing 3-6 now? Wow, way to go" and then as soon as he sat out out, you again made fun of him for being basically busted.

You are a helluva guy.
Quote:
Sorry, remind me again why gambling degenerates are good targets for chat abuse?
Chat abuse? How about just a few observations?

Lets see.

Last time i played neverwin it was at 5/T.
Now he sat at 3/6.

Observation #1.

"Wow. Its 3/6 now. Nice going."

After losing to a 2outer and then to a 3outer and winning nicely catching a bluff I made observation #2.

"Tell me, why fish like me does not need to get lucky to win and shark like you does?"

After losing to another 2outer I made observation #3.

"I guess thats the reason you are here"

Meaning the reason you are here playing 3/6 after playing nosebleeds is that you need 2 outers to win a bit too often.

It is my firm believe, btw, that its not a great idea to put yourself in a position to need to be lucky to win. Aint gonna work to well.

So that about it.
Is there a little bit of an agenda in my observations?
Probably. And what's wrong with that?

To call it chat abuse...
You guys are a bit to touchy for the ruthless predators you are.

I would also recommend you to read some old nevewins blogs from times he was top HULHE dog.
I'm sure you'll find a lot of reasons to say "He is helluva guy"

And thats without even getting involved into unpaid dept story.

Peace out.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:37 PM   #130
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

wolfram: You sure on backgammon? From my understanding Snowie/GNU/et al are not close to making optimal choices. They can compete at world class level but even at 3-ply they can misjudge situations. The game tree seems way too vast for pure optimal calculation. You not confusing that with checkers? (which itself was recently 'solved')

copoka: I wasn't replying to you. Read who I quoted. I didn't see what you typed and i'm not interested.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:49 PM   #131
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hood View Post
copoka: I wasn't replying to you. Read who I quoted. I didn't see what you typed and i'm not interested.
Please, accept my apologies for misquoting and getting you involved in something you are not interested being a part of.

I will do my best to make sure it will never happen again.
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Old 03-05-2010, 04:33 PM   #132
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hood View Post
wolfram: You sure on backgammon? From my understanding Snowie/GNU/et al are not close to making optimal choices. They can compete at world class level but even at 3-ply they can misjudge situations. The game tree seems way too vast for pure optimal calculation. You not confusing that with checkers? (which itself was recently 'solved')

copoka: I wasn't replying to you. Read who I quoted. I didn't see what you typed and i'm not interested.
I'm pretty sure you are both right. The last time I checked gammon was solved excluding doubling, but is unsolved for games with the cube.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:07 PM   #133
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

could you link to any details on this? I'm drawing a search-blank.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:41 PM   #134
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

RaiseOnce and Stickman sitting at 1k2k right now
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:43 PM   #135
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Just been honored by a presents of great neverwin at my poultry 3/6 corner of a poker world.

36 hands and he left dropping 4 bets.

I compromised my game selection a bit out of curiosity.

Couple of hands

Hand #1
Poker Stars $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.333 SB) Hero is BTN/SB with A 2
Hero raises, BB calls

Flop: (4 SB) 4 A 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

Turn: (3 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River: (5 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls

Spoiler:


Hand #2
Poker Stars $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.333 SB) Hero is BB with Q 7
BTN/SB raises, Hero calls

Flop: (4 SB) 5 A 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero raises, BTN/SB calls

Turn: (4 BB) K (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN/SB calls

River: (6 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets, Hero calls

Spoiler:
You played both these hands worse than he did.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:05 PM   #136
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
You played both these hands worse than he did.
Would you care to comment a bit more?
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:12 PM   #137
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

your river call is probably not good in hand one. Other than that I think he played the hand fine as a float.

Your flop ck raise is a small but clear mistake in hand two. I think he played it fine.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:35 PM   #138
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

I think otr15 is way too smart and thinks that in hand 1, b/f A2 > b/f 88.

And I wish wookie's tourney had a better time, but if I'm somehow still awake in 4 hours I'll try to get the wolfram title.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:57 PM   #139
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
your river call is probably not good in hand one. Other than that I think he played the hand fine as a float.

Your flop ck raise is a small but clear mistake in hand two. I think he played it fine.
TY.

My thoughts.

Hand 1.

Giving the no flopc/r, FD is highly discounted and thus 3 on the river looks like a prett nice brick.
So if anything my river bet could be a suspect (what is there to call and lose? + callecting from bluffs), but once I bet not calling river, which I see as a good brick but opponent may concider as great scare card (flush + trips) and bluff raise, is out of question in my mind.
I'm getting 8 to 1 on that call.
Bluff raise will come from that type of an ooponent much more often than that.
I hope you are not folding to river raises getting 8 to 1 too often.

Hand 2.

Check raising flop is a clear mistake.
How clear it is really?
I'm there with a hand that needs a lot of help.
Help in this game ususally comes from agression.
There is nothing new in c/r A hi flops, A53 is not a worse board to agress at and flop is the cheapest street to start.

I know we play vs ranges, but if you'd know his hand, what line would you choose to extract the max value?
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:35 PM   #140
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

My thoughts

Imo Hand 1 - pretty bad river card for you. Flush draw obv, also stuff like K3. I mean what do you hope you beat? Just a rando floated hand or K high that checkraise bluffs the river? Turning 4x in to a bluff? Saying things like "I hope you don't fold on the river getting 8 to 1 too often" trivialises the situation.

Hand 2 - Not sure what you mean with "I'm there with a hand", i mean Q7 is pretty much got absolutely nothing going for it here, if you check-raise this what hands are you checkfolding?
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:01 PM   #141
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hood View Post
My thoughts

Imo Hand 1 - pretty bad river card for you. Flush draw obv, also stuff like K3. I mean what do you hope you beat? Just a rando floated hand or K high that checkraise bluffs the river? Turning 4x in to a bluff? Saying things like "I hope you don't fold on the river getting 8 to 1 too often" trivialises the situation.

Hand 2 - Not sure what you mean with "I'm there with a hand", i mean Q7 is pretty much got absolutely nothing going for it here, if you check-raise this what hands are you checkfolding?
Hand 1.

Again, FD is very far from obvious. How often do you NOT C/R flush draw on a flop?
Answer to that question should tell you why its far from obviose.

What do I hope to beat?
As i said, if you would ask from what do I hope to collect by betting, i would agree much more.
But what do Ihope to beat calling?
List can be long enough. How about small pair that decided to try to fold an Ace using flush +trips scare card?

Getting 8 to 1 I'll just let him, as Bryce puts it, to surprise me.

Hand 2.

If 2oc to a second pair with Q is nothing, I have to ask you what do you continiue with?
So foldingis out of question,

Now, my remaining options.
Do I call or raise?
Ahi flop, A53 board. Looks like a good balancing raising opporunity for me.

What would i fold?

Q6 is like Q7.
Q4 and Q2 would give me a GS.

Yep, i'd fold nothing.

TY for your comments, Hood
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:09 PM   #142
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

When my hand is good 1 time in 20 I usually (sometimes?) fold getting 8-1... I don't understand how you think your hand is good 1 in 8. You don't beat any of his value range and you don't beat any hands he might be bluffing other than random stuff w/ sd value that he's turning into a bluff.

Re: How clear is it?

A: Very very clear.


Hand two I'd probably just c/c c/f but wouldn't really blame you for c/f right away. If I knew his hand of course I'd c/r to induce bluffs, but you don't know his hand. You have Q high. You are targeting an incredibly narrow range of hands (bad K highs, better Q highs) when you have poor equity against his range and you're oop. You're also going to have to fire multiple bullets to make him fold any of the hands that you're targeting... So he'll be able to own you pretty well on the turn pretty often.

Not sure what you mean checktheriver but I hope you're saying that 88 and A2 are exactly the same hand there. If that's what you mean, after NW raises the river that's an excellent and true point.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:26 PM   #143
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
When my hand is good 1 time in 20 I usually (sometimes?) fold getting 8-1... I don't understand how you think your hand is good 1 in 8. You don't beat any of his value range and you don't beat any hands he might be bluffing other than random stuff w/ sd value that he's turning into a bluff.

Re: How clear is it?

A: Very very clear.


Hand two I'd probably just c/c c/f but wouldn't really blame you for c/f right away. If I knew his hand of course I'd c/r to induce bluffs, but you don't know his hand. You have Q high. You are targeting an incredibly narrow range of hands (bad K highs, better Q highs) when you have poor equity against his range and you're oop. You're also going to have to fire multiple bullets to make him fold any of the hands that you're targeting... So he'll be able to own you pretty well on the turn pretty often.

Not sure what you mean checktheriver but I hope you're saying that 88 and A2 are exactly the same hand there. If that's what you mean, after NW raises the river that's an excellent and true point.
So in hand 2 I dont know his hand, but in hand 1 you know you are 20 to 1 dog and thus getting 8 to 1 is not enough
Convenient.

Quote:
You are targeting an incredibly narrow range of hands (bad K highs, better Q highs) when you have poor equity against his range and you're oop.
I'm targeting a 100% openning range + 100% flop cbet, aka random hand.

Quote:
You're also going to have to fire multiple bullets to make him fold any of the hands that you're targeting... So he'll be able to own you pretty well on the turn pretty often.
My actions are subject to reevaluation.
As far as owning me...
Thats where balancing come in play.
He will have to get owned when i do the same with top2.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:26 PM   #144
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinamaniac View Post
log1285: zs
logo185: dvz'a e\d g
logo185: svgdtr h
loo1285: dfv
logo285: v
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log285: rc
lo1285: x\
lo1285: jhgfsx
lo1285: cgnhjgfs
lo1285: nhgfvgfb
loo1285: cfgb
log285: h
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log285: fnhn
logo85: hnd
lo1285: s
lo1285: bgrd
lo285: hntrbd
lo1285: gsvd
lo1285: hrt
lo1285: ,
log285: hbg
logo85: gtrbd
logo85: ymrtjnhgbabe
lo285: jmrmjd
log285: fkn worst
chinamaniac: sorry
logo85: have fun being reported superuser
chinamaniac: I got good cards
lo85: bringing you up on cheating
chinamaniac: ok
chinamaniac: gl
log85: fkn moron
logo85: take it all
logo85: dont give asshyt
chinamaniac: lol
logo85: fk you
log285: hope you die
chinamaniac: i like you
logo85: gfy
log85: 100 straight hands
chinamaniac: i think you should quit
log85: you play like a fkn moron
chinamaniac: ty
logo5: wtf am i doing wrong???
logo85: i get it in good every time and you fkn suck out???
logo85: because ogh look lets call with nothing on the flop
log85: oh lets call with the draw i made
logo5: oih look i made it
chinamaniac:
chinamaniac: are we playing more?
log85: gfy
lo1285: superiuser
l1285: sending the email now
chinamaniac: ok
log85: i just want you investigated
chinamaniac: ok
chinamaniac: brb
chinamaniac: gotta go to bathroom
logo12: **
chinamaniac: cool off and when I get back we can play some more
nice.
I like to say "i love you" over and over when they berate me.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:28 PM   #145
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

I'm still on the same page as OTR. although I open xf the flop in the 2nd hand without much thought, sure xf > xc >>>>> xr though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
Hand 1.

Again, FD is very far from obvious. How often do you NOT C/R flush draw on a flop?
Against me, I have K high and Q high flush draws. Against an unknown, we can largely widen this (whether at this point of the hand you assumed him to take 'standard' lines or not is unclear).

Quote:
What do I hope to beat?
As i said, if you would ask from what do I hope to collect by betting, i would agree much more.
Value bet is super standard. You beat like loads of worse hands.

Quote:
But what do Ihope to beat calling?
List can be long enough. How about small pair that decided to try to fold an Ace using flush +trips scare card?
Number of times I've seen a weak made hand turn it in to a river xr bluff: 4
number of times I see a flush here or trips: a mirrion

Quote:
Getting 8 to 1 I'll just let him, as Bryce puts it, to surprise me.
surprise!

Hand 2.

Quote:
If 2oc to a second pair with Q is nothing, I have to ask you what do you continiue with?
2oc to 2nd pair with some backdoor. K high for more SDV would be nice. Megaton of draws get checkraised here. As I said above I can understand the checkcall to continue with your 2 overs + SDV (i fold it), but xr is a no-go for me because we're just targetting a few hand combos that are significantly worse that ours.

Quote:
Yep, i'd fold nothing.
What's your fold to c-bet OOP? I think this may be a leak. Your check-raising range could be unbalanced if you fold 0 hand combos 0% of the time on boards like this.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:38 PM   #146
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
So in hand 2 I dont know his hand, but in hand 1 you know you are 20 to 1 dog and thus getting 8 to 1 is not enough
Convenient.
Now this is getting a bit silly. He is estimating in hand 1 he is good like 1 time in 20 vs. his range. This is far from what the pot is offering.

In hand 2, he made the point that we don't know his exact hand (and there's only a few hands that xr-ing the flop would be the profitable line).

It's not about convenience at all.

Quote:
I'm targeting a 100% openning range + 100% flop cbet, aka random hand.
OTR's point is that you are targeting hands to fold, and very few will. And these are hands you beat anyway. You obviously aren't "targeting" a top pair or set with your checkraise bluff here. So you aren't targetting "aka random hand" at all.

copoka last month you said you knew many players are better than you. I would nominate OTR as one of them. I would really suggest you read his advice carefully, he has taken time out to hlpe you here and it should lead to serious improvements in your game.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:41 PM   #147
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinamaniac View Post
logo85: have fun being reported superuser
It's kinda scary every time a recreational player uses the term 'superuser', something (i assume) coined from the UB/AP scandal. I wonder how it adversely effected the games, the story has clearly filtered it's way down through the 2+2 crowd to common parlance with all rec. poker players.

And yet the cereus network seems to be doing just fine.

How many of you guys sit tables there?
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:44 PM   #148
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
So in hand 2 I dont know his hand, but in hand 1 you know you are 20 to 1 dog and thus getting 8 to 1 is not enough
Convenient.
I'm not sure if you're leveling copoka, but this is one of the most hilarious and wrong headed things I've ever seen on this forum.

Of course you don't know what hand he has when he c-bets the flop and yet you can still estimate how often your hand is good on the river in hand 1. Obviously these are two different situations.

I know that he doesn't have any true bluffs in his range because I have eyes and can see how the hand played out. I know the only hands that he played this way that make any sense at all are small pairs he decided to turn into a bluff or K high he decided to turn into a bluff to make you fold top pair.

Since NW doesn't think you're ever folding top pair I can assume that he isn't doing this very often at all. Almost certainly not one time in 8. My estimation is 1 time in 20.


Quote:
Originally Posted by copoka View Post
I'm targeting a 100% openning range + 100% flop cbet, aka random hand.
So you want him to fold J high....???? Do you see why this thought process is problematic.

What you're basically saying is "I want to win the pot"

Maybe there's a reason beside variance that you went on a 9 month be stretch?
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:53 PM   #149
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

I agree with OTR that C/R A53 with Q7 or K4 (similar situation imo) is a loosing play and I don't like too.

Becouse when you c/r this flop you have a lot of bluff/semibluffs and your opponents know that.


I prefer a C/R bluff on a KQ4 flop with 97 for example. People bet/fold more on this flop, but con a A53 flop people bet/call about 200% of their flop betting range: if they catch one pair on the turn they have the best hand very often and they can re-bluff you on the turn (or bet/3bet flop IP)
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:01 PM   #150
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Re: HUHU NC/LC Thread for March

Thats what I Love about disscusing limit holdem hands by pros.

As long as convincing and smart looking phrase is chosen nothing else matters much.
Even if I'll back my play with tons of identically played hands from boatload of vids played by number of respected players, and opposite argument can be constructed.

As long as it looks smart, its good.

Quote:
You are targeting an incredibly narrow range of hands (bad K highs, better Q highs) when you have poor equity against his range and you're oop.
This is completely false since I'm targeting random hand (100% opening + 100% cbet).

But it looks so smart and comes from such a high authority its just has to be right.

Quote:
Value bet is super standard. You beat like loads of worse hands.
And none of those worse hands will ever decide to bluff raise???
Like none of them? Ever? Not even misclick?

And i will check all my vids I have and report back with number of FD that did not C/R flop.
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