No update? i thought the trial started monday.

Read about the first few days here.

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov...r=CR2010006435

I expect yesterday's summary to be up soon.

Still no summary of yesterday's action, let alone today's if it went that long.

The most notable thing in the notes so far was this, as expected:

"Ronald Curcio is sworn and testifies."

Curcio's sentencing date is set for the end of the trial. It's obvious his plea is/was contingent on testifying at trial against Lee.

Friend just informed me that Lee was found guilty on three counts:
13-1003 (F3) CONSPIRACY
13-2312 (F3) ILLEGAL CONTROL OF ENTERPRISE
13-3303A2 (F5) GAMBLING-ASSIST/MANAGE/FINANCE
More info here:
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.go...=CR2010-006435

I'm shocked.
























[That the trial took so long...]

Seriously though, still no updates from the last few days on this page:

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov...r=CR2010006435

Right now there's just the first few days of the trial.

No doubt we'll see Lee's camp come forward and tell us how they're going to appeal, how his rights are being violated by the man and how the whole damned system is out of order.

Here's the longer description of the charges and their disposition. Viva la vBulletin table support!

Party Name	ARSCode	Description	Crime Date	Disposition Code	Disposition Date
Harold Smith Lee Jr.	13-1003 (F3) CONSPIRACY	7/25/2008	Guilty By Jury	Guilty By Jury	2/3/2012
Harold Smith Lee Jr.	13-2312 (F3) ILLEGAL CONTROL OF ENTERPRISE	7/2/2008	Guilty By Jury	Guilty By Jury	2/3/2012
Harold Smith Lee Jr.	13-3303A2 (F5) GAMBLING-ASSIST/MANAGE/FINANCE	7/25/2008	Guilty By Jury	Guilty By Jury	2/3/2012

Adding the sentencing guidelines...

Felony	Mitigated	Minimum	Presumptive	Maximum	Aggravated
Class 3	2 years	2.5 years	3.5 years	7 years	8.75 years
Class 5	.5 years	.75 years	1.5 years	2 years	2.5 years

I didn't realize that link apparently it doesn't go straight to the docket.
Use case # CR2010-006435 in "search by case #" in that link to pull it up

And i wonder why the minutes page is taking so long to update as Palimax pointed out.

Lee wasn't charged with Benefiting from gambling? He must not have made a profit

Mods can we make this a rule here at 4?

1/25/2012 MIL - Motion In Limine - Party (001) 1/26/2012
NOTE: STATE’S MOTION IN LIMINE TO LIMIT IRRELEVANT TESTIMONY REGARDING OPINIONS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENTS

I guess this is bad for existing open rooms? Precedent?

A lot of rooms are trying to adopt different strategies (social club, donation only), and some might prove to be viable, but yes, this is not good for those rooms.

Making money from other's playing poker is still against the law in Arizona, no matter how much you pretend your button fee isn't benefit.

Can WillyB be sued for making false claims such as he has on 2+2?

Probably not. Come see me Willy. YOU GOT MY NUMBER.

Or how much the State overlooks the fact that these are private adult clubs and every member has a choice to join and pay per use or leave. This whole voluntary donation is a silly notion cooked up by for-profit ventures, of which, I assure you, Schnaubelt is not one WillyB. Take your baseless accusations elsewhere. Focus onnthe evil mind evil deed clubs that are criminal in nature. Attacking legitimate clubs just makes you look like a tyrant.

And in case you haven't noticed yet, I'm kinda against tyranny. TYRANNY BREEDS ANARCHY. I don't much care for anarchy either.

HOW you make benefit of others playing poker is irrelevant.

Donation, membership... ...it's all a smoke-screen.

Judge Lee is the tip of the iceberg.

Tommy planted it. WillyB can cut and paste it here.

And let the fireworks begin. Thanks for kicking it off Palimax. Can we talk some more about the benefit obtained in your illegal home game?

How you mandatorily rake the pot for a wsop seat in an unequal advantage end game... You are right... It doesnt matter one (insert bold italics) HOW you obtain illegal benefit. It only matters how much noise you make. UNLESS your name is WillyB... Then apparently it doesnt matter how many civil complaints you make, they fall on deaf ears.

I've answered this question repeatedly, both here, and to the satisfaction of the home game moderators (as my game is posted with the other unraked games).

The wager is that I can play more cash hours than you do over the course of a season, and those hours provide chips for a tournament. You may surrender your wager at any time by stopping playing (and risking more cash weekly), or by not playing at least as much as 15% of the games of the leader. NO MONEY EVER LEAVES THE WAGER AND IS 100% RETURNED TO THE PLAYERS AND ONLY THE PLAYERS.

Your straw-man is boring. Shame your "hero" got debunked and shown for what he was -- a criminal. But that's no reason to lash out at me.

Hypocrisy breeds tyranny breeds anarchy. Sorry. Your strawman theory about money not leaving the pot is pure misdirection. The problem ADG has with your illegal home game rake is the unequal advantage a "regular" gains versus someone who doesnt play as often as, say, oh i dunno... You, the organizer. Enough smoke and mirrors The Palimax. Your home game needs to be regulated by ADG as much as any np coop.

In fact, some of you nits may enjoy this tidbit... The State's prosecuting attorney had his witness (ADG Agent Bustos) testify that he thought a rake could mean one of two things:

1. When the dealer rakes everyones wagers into the pot.

2. When, like at the casino, they take a one (1) dollar rake by taking the small blind to fund a Class III jackpot promotion.

Furthermore, the AG contended that tje game of poker is and of itself illegal because the small and big blinds are forced bets... And therefore unequal advantage to say, the utg positiin who doesnt have to post anything. Using this logic, ANY poker game is illegal and resistance is futile.

C'mon people wake up. Lee had to win or be convicted to win this fight. Now leave me alone. I dont want to go to prison for squeaking.

/bump

No.

It's the very definition of social. Since nobody benefits except the gamblers, and the all 21+ year old gamblers all gamble equal terms, we are the very model of the social exception.

Again, I'm sorry that the poster child for running strip-mall games is facing hard time because he's too dumb crazy to take a plea agreement - but you dredging up the same, tired, asked-and-answered argument about my game is sour grapes.

I'm probably playing tonight during/after the UFC fight, provided we're not shorthanded. It's fun, playing a game without someone making money from you doing it. I think that's what makes you the angriest -- that I'm playing poker, in a good setting, in a safe environment, and nobody getting a cut of it. The strip-mall owners want their dollar bills from the pots of players and they want membership fees. Every unraked, square, home-game must piss them off to no end. Every time someone like me spends a hundred bucks hosting a nice game, they all cringe knowing they're losing customers, and rake, and money in THEIR pockets from other people playing poker.

So keep attacking my home game. It shows your true motivations.

Saying the same rhetoric over and over doesn't make it remotely true.

The tribes have no monopoly on PLAYING poker. They only have a state monopoly on providing poker as a business.

You can PLAY the "sport" of poker all you want - as long as you're not a greedy SOB.

I'm playing tonight, and I won't be at the casino. QED: No monopoly.

Im a nutshell, poker is legal in Arizona, yes.

Playing professional poker where the dealer can take a tip, confined to casinos that charge poker players for shrimp forks and electricity for slot machines.

Furthermore, poker at the casinos is a class iii chance game tainted by pots raked wuth impunity.

Believe me Palimax, by attacking your home game with some of the same logic the AG used (see above - rakes and unfair advantages) i am merely trying to get our minds to meet.

I dont care if casinos can rake $20 from the pot for a class iii game of poker. But i do care that i cant hire a dealer or tip a dealer to deal professional class i or class ii poker at my house, business, or on the courthouse steps.

I cant keep falling prey to the lure of 2+2 but its the only place for semi-intelligent debate with the naysayers.

Citz

There are neither rakes nor an unfair advantage in my game -- in fact, you're welcome to host a 5+ player game tonight, earn some hours, and contribute some prize money. You don't need me. You're on the same footing as I am.

If the very act of tipping a professional for performing the service he or she is trained to perform is what makes an otherwise legal service illegal, then there is something wrong with that law.

In fact, i cant think of any other such instance besides a game of cards that such a strawman argument for any such "benefit" being deemed illegal.

i agree to a point, but i think the bigger issue is that in many circumstances then and now, the professional dealer who was tipped for providing a superior service was forced by the room operator to give up a predetermined portion ( more than 50% in some cases) of those EARNED tips as payment to the operator for being allowed to deal on the premises.