Sounds like the blatant abuse of power we have been stumping on about since the first Poker Memorandum of Understanding was signed, ceding exclusive Class III Jackpot Poker rights to the BIA gambling syndicate without any citizen comment, review or consideration!

Give it up.

Your guy got his jury trial and lost. He's guilty. He's a felon. Your side is wrong. His peers convicted him.

Let me know if you ever work to change the law instead of playing conspiracy theorist.

Give up on calling out Hypocrisy? Tyranny? Greed?

Give up on legitimizing professional poker "for the rest of us"?

Give up in Class I and Class II poker because Class III poker in a nearby quasi-nation-state with limited sovereignty is "good enough"? Maybe for you.

Give up attempting to explain the often confusing and myriad of tangled legal and historical facts about the sport of poker?

Give up on saying that the Poker Memorandum of Understanding is a conspiracy does not in and of itself make me a conspiracy theorist.

Give up trying to get people to look under the covers?

Give up on "our side" having our next "change the law" meeting with more elected legislative representatives next Tuesday?

But why bother telling you this? What do you have to offer to the poker movement besides a huge man crush on conflicted ADG substantive policy statements regarding poker?

What "movement?"

Your movement is a bunch of room owners taking a rake in a variety of creative methods because the punishment for making money is trivial. You say say "sport of poker" until you're blue in the face, but the state doesn't care if it's sport or not. You can argue about Class I, II, or III gaming all you want, but none of what's allowed on the reservation makes what you want to do off the reservation any more or less legal. You can pretend there's some sort of BIA conspiracy, but that just makes you seem as kookie as Lee. There's no covers to look under. Arizona's law is simple, clear, and absolutely straightforward. What part of no benefit do you need explained for the thousandth time? Change the law if you don't like it. There's a simple, clear referendum process in this state.

Write a proposed legislative change and get 10,000 signatures.

You're welcome. It's obvious that you don't want to do that, since it's the simplest route by a mile.

Lee's plan is clearly working out so well.

There was an article about the conviction ion of the casino industry business publications i saw at work tonight that stated that judge Lee got 18 months( not 12) probation. It also stated the Lee and the other defendants were on the hook for the cost of the entire operation leading up to the conviction, a restitution figure i would imagine is pretty substantial.

Sounds like the ADG press release, not an article printed about Lee's conviction earlier in the day, but that of ron curcio and mike orlando. Orlando got 18 and restitution

Was he still in a position of power at the time of the offense or was he out of power? If he was out, your complaint is not valid.

Are you saying it is okay for those in power to disregard the law if they do not do it blatantly?

Do you think that once someone is convicted, they should have no appeals?

Hmm, ill look at it a bit harder and see if i can get a copy tonight. It is most definitely an article in a magazine of some sort.

I'm saying that what I believe is that is you're going to be a judge, that when you later intentionally break the law instead of working to fix it, you've got no excuse - nothing, none at all. There's no sort of first-time leniency, etc. He wasn't engaged in a crime of passion. This wasn't spur of the moment. He knew exactly how the system worked and he [ab]used it to his advantage every step of the way.

He should be in jail. Hopefully cooped up with people HE sent there back when he was a judge. Current or former, he should be held to a higher standard.

...at least that's my opinion.

Local poker magazines don't necessarily have the highest journalism standards.

Appeals are a freeroll, they can't tack on more punishment. I suppose if you have to pay attorney's fees they'd go hire but I didn't see that here.

If Lee gets caught violating probation then he would be in big trouble.

Sorry nm

Ifnit was a mag, that requires layoit and copy and adverts and press deadline. Ubin read it the day of sentencing. It wasnt aboit lee so muxh as the 2 owners who were sentenced to 6 and 18 months of probation.

Interesting. They can (and do) in Texas.

That must cut down on people wanting to appeal. If you lose, you could end up with a harsher punishment.

Yes, indeed...



February 19, 2009:

Laura Hall's sentence thrown out [KXAN.com]

The Texas Third Court of Appeals threw out the five-year sentence handed down to Laura Hall...

November 4, 2011:

Laura Hall's bid for parole denied [KXAN.com]

Laura Hall, sentenced to 10 years for tampering with evidence...

Is Laura Hall from Arizona? What does what Texas does have to so with what Judge Lee does? How is this on topic?

I was perusing my ealiest posts and the two AZ cardroom threads that were closed "for debatable legality" ... I am still confounded by this. Why close a thread that discusses the issues in an open moderated forum?

And yet allow the same topics to continue here and in other threads?*

"debatable legality"... Aren't the legality of tribal compacts equally "debatable"? Why are tribal casinos and their cardroom threads not closed?*

Rapini, replace "debatable" with "lawful or unlawful" and that may work as justification for closing a viable and informative thread. But that still wouldnt satisfy this citizen because now you have gone and made a determination of law, which 2+2 moderators are not qualified to do. For Pete's sake, soon to be announced plea bargains reached with illegal The Nuts cardroom operators were able to advertize on 2+2 forums! But those forums that discuss the issues on The Nuts and other storefront cardrooms which may or may not be legally operating in the Valley for 6+ years now.... Those forums remain closed.*

The ADG says there are 26 cardrooms operating in Maricopa County today. Phxpokermaps.com and PhoenixPokerClubs.com show us some of there operations. Is is any wonder people like me are banned for calling out 2+2 users, moderators and policies for tyrannical hypocrisy?

Jobo66

That being said, one article says that on appeal she wins and her 5 year sentence is thrown out. But she then serves 10 years? If these links were relevant i might read em and see whats going on but atm i am knee deep in regulatory definitions for a county ordinance or initiative to license cardrooms outside of municipal jurisdictions. Sadly this is something i must do because certain paladins for the cause are 100% lip service when it comes to pitching in to help enact change. And then they have the audacity to ask for a three year syllabus on what we have done to enact this change thus far. Silly paladins.

"Jobo," or whatever you've changed your name this week to avoid being banned for the 3rd time...

If you're still curious about their "dubious legality", please reference JUDGE LEE BEING FOUND GUILTY.

Allow me to ask: What good does a county ordinance do if you don't change state law first? State law still trumps county law, and you can't gamble in Arizona unless you meet the exemptions (e.g. Social).

The tribal compacts, the ADOG's ability to interpret and publish policy, Lee's crazy plan -- all tested in court and came up as wins for the state. His appeal is a colossal waste of his time and my money, as was the entire trial. The state sent him to have his sanity checked for God's sake. What's wrong with you people. Don't you get that you're barking up the wrong tree?!?

Oh Matt, your simpleton notions about government working from the top down, and not of the people, by the people and for the people is charming in an ADG MAN CRUSH loving kind of way. And i do hope you have the RSS feed for unedited posts. If so theb you wont miss the fantabulous dress down i just issued.

Suffice to say there is more than one way a cardroom can legally operate today, just as there is more than one way to enact change in the way things are today. lee will tey on appeal, as we try legislatively as lobbyists. All else fails, we can ask the palimax to help gather signatures for a statewide initiative.

*sigh*

You do understand that federal law trumps state late, and state law trumps county law, and so forth and so on, right?

Felon Harold Lee wasn't found guilty for violating CITY or COUNTY laws. He was found guilty for violating STATE laws. You can write up whatever sort of proposed county ordinance you'd like, but unless you change state law, you're pissing up a rope.

Start drafting your proposed changes to ARS 13-33xx to include for more exemptions or forever waste your time.

So you say.

The problem is, that's neither tested nor necessarily true.

Felon Harold Lee said the same thing when he was spreading his lies. He said his model was legal, and we all see how that turned out.

You can't beat the central tenant of the situation.

In Arizona, you can't benefit from other people gambling. That benefit is broadly defined, and has already been clearly ruled to include button fees or memberships. Changing your organizational structure to a charity or a non-profit or a cooperative doesn't change that there *is* benefit.

I still imagine it would be possible to organize poker play as a labor of love (I've spent thousands of dollars out of my own pocket with zero remuneration for my game), but I don't see it happening in any way that's ever going to allow you to have a storefront and a business that ever see a dime go from player to host -- even if you pretend that all players are club members or some such nonsense. Dealers need paid, and tips are benefit. [Ask the ADOG or the Gilbert city attorney.]

The two choices have always been:

1. Make a change to the law, by finding a sponsor or by the referendum process.
2. Keep pretending you're crusaders and run poker rooms for profit because the penalty is still vastly less than the reward for doing so.

It doesn't take years to write up proposed legislation - especially since everyone on your side wants to pretend they're lawyers.


ADHS had 180 days to figure out how to manage Medicinal Marijuana, and 90% of that time was spent getting public commentary. I know Felon Lee was familiar with that process, because he was spotted attending community meetings on the subject. He certainly understands how a simple ballot initiative can change the law -- but he chooses instead to engage in some sort of blood-soaked lands crusade, setting any real movement back years.


You've done nothing but waste time.


If you'd drafted a proposed legislative change back when Felon Lee got arrested, you'd have changed the law by now -- or at least gotten the signatures you'd need to put it to a vote.


...and if your vote fails -- the people have spoken.


Of course, the people spoke already when we voted in tribal casino gaming -- but you disagree with it, so, hey, ignore that mandate from the people.

If you honestly couldn't comprehend the issues regarding Laura Hall and why I brought her case up for discussion, I would gently suggest that you skip any attempt at understanding regulatory definitions for a county ordinance as it will obviously be a complete and total waste of time.

It's bad enough he doesn't understand that getting a county in AZ to create an ordinance doesn't change state law.

Here in AZ we've got strip bars on county islands because cities zoned such that it's impossible to have adult businesses anywhere on the map. The only strip clubs in Phoenix have been there since before the zoning changes or are in un-trafficked industrial areas near the airport.

...but what Arizona doesn't have is a state law the forbids strippers.

We do, however, have a law that says "Gambling is Illegal UNLESS" and then gives a narrow list of exemptions. Pretty much even being a business fouls the social one, and the rest are about crane games and state fairs.

He can get a county ordinance re-written, but it doesn't change state law.

He's pissing up a rope.

His "movement" has had years to do it the right way, and they've made zero progress.

They go back to one of the clubs that hasn't been busted yet, and they have a meeting every fourth Sunday (or whatever) and they bloviate about how their next model is the right one -- when it's all just a smoke-screen to keep pretending. They've actually convinced themselves they're right, and no amount of smack-you-in-the-face court verdicts are going to deter them. ...and anyone wonders why the State made Felon Lee submit to psychiatric evaluation. He's crazy, and so is anyone still following him. The koolade over there must be AWESOME.