Omg fish! I don't know what rock you crawled out off but enough of your biased anti-poker club trash:

> club owners manipulate there own games.

Please, liar, be specific and give examples. And if you could cite TTJ incidents, we'd be all the more interested.

> They have there dollars signs and button signs in there head

it's difficult to respond to your speculation and ignorance... what part of non-profit cooperative (every member equal owner) makes you think anyone playing at TTJ benefits any more than anyone else?

> and thats all that matters.

Ya, the movement TTJ is first and foremost is secondary to the almighty button fee. Tell ya what, our button fee is optional. As is our +5. You don't have to pay a membership fee either. We'll honor this for the life of TTJ. You saw it here. Tucked away in this response to a biased moron's post. I'll bet nobody reads it, because nobody reads this blog. And those that do, of course, would NEVER come play even if the +5 and button and membership fees were 100% optional. ANd oh, not that that matters anyway, because I'm quite sure the DoG interpretation of the laws of "benefit" already state that a fee, voluntary or otherwise, make the gambling illegal. As if. LOL

> I hope your rooms get regulated

Dear lord, we hope so too. Don't get me wrong. Any time the government gets involved it's usually not a good thing. But if regulation and/or oversight is what it takes to get our mission accomplished, we'll make due as best we can with it. We'll have to.

> because then we will really know who owns a room for the sake of the game and players

OMG ever hear of the corporation commission website? This info is already public knowledge for all rooms past and present.

>because when it gets regulated you guys wont be able to pull half the crap you are doing now in your rooms.

So I gather your apparent beef isn't specific enough to target one club or any number of clubs, or cite examples. What are you basing your opinions on fish?

> all of you will fold up, you will not want any part of it when the state tells you how to run your social card room.

The state will never dictate to the industry how they must run their card rooms. And if they did, we win. The state loves their casino revenue. They rely on it. The gambling industry won that battle. Our battle is to take back poker. The gambling industry can still have it too, that's okay, but poker shouldn't be relegated to being played (again, professionally) in a BIA casino in another country (actually a domestic dependent nation, not sovereign, but under the protection AND CONTROL of the federal government).

Regulation is something we hope to work through with our legislative efforts to free pro poker from gambling industry and BIA casinos. Regulation can be as tight (or loose, depending on your perspective) as the DoG overseeing poker room promotions and jackpots. That's their job. And that's also our job, today, in our cooperative, self-regulating operation.

> So you will just take the money that was made and close your doors...

I think this happens with the vast majority of rooms after the judge loses his case at the State level, and that just means that the two or three clubs that do remain open are easier targets for prosecution. Maybe every one of 'em close down with a cease and desist, but that doesn't mean the fight is lost, it just means we get to go to court and argue the merits for and against our cause.

>who really opened up ttj? i mean who put there money on the line in that room?

Become a member, remember now dear reader, it's free for you to do so, and you can view our books and get the answers to all your questions and more. No problem.

We wrestled around with the idea of servicing or not servicing a startup loan (seed money), versus having no loan interest, versus just a flat out donation. Lucky for us TTJ is a true democratic process, and not a dictatorship, so in the end, in our private social club cooperative anyway, such matters always come down to a membership vote at TTJ. We do what the members want. It really is beautiful, sweet waste of time, isn't it. LOL

Pokertruth, at TTJ we not only take our dealer's input but each and every members' opinions and input into consideration as well.

So, obviously the club scene is not for you. And that's okay.

You'd rather play in an amateur home league or a BIA casino where you have NO SAY in anything (nor do the dealers).

The beauty of cooperatively owning our own club is that we DO control it. We control all of it. Everything.

What's interesting to me is that the strip mall poker scene is so entrenched in Arizona today that there are actually different classifications for them now. Profit or non-profit, cooperative or collective or sole proprietor... and to come here and see a 7 post newb typing in all caps (passionate lad, eh?) just makes me wonder what YOUR motivation and qualifications to pontificate here are. I probably won't be responding to you again myself, because it's pointless. In fact, once again, I'm probably not coming back here again for some time if ever.

Why?

Because in our attempt to gather support, you'd think a place like twoplustwo would be pro legalized off-rez gambling but because we've taken the stance of "here's the line, and if you wanna come get us, come get us, but we don't think you will because unlike the Judge and every other room in the Valley, we are all owners, we are all benefitting equally, we're not-for-profit, our books our open, we're self-regulating, and working towards getting city and state approval for our model so that the government is happy getting their slice too.

Palimax laughed at the idea of a non-profit paying taxes, and it's funny because he works(ed) for a non-profit too. Taxes, levy, surcharge, whatever ya wanna call it and however you wanna extract it, it's an expense we add to our monthly nut just like any other. Uncle Sam wants his, we will gladly give it up if that makes us legal and we'll even suffer the regulation so many nits clamor for (which, surprisingly, they are just fine with the DoG policing the casinos that directly pay their salaries).

Yes, mods, if you could please, delete or combine my home account with my mobile account.

Palimax, you know jobo66 and this account are one and the same. I make no effort to hide that from you or anyone else. I'm too lazy (or just don't care) to sync my phone with my Mac. Why do you care?

Nevermind, I bet there is a forum rule that says you can't have two different accounts. Ivory tower watch dog cries foul!

Please, do something immediately. Stop this crackpot from tainting our forums further!

Please, ban me for life. This forum, these threads, nothing like I expected. In fact, the complete opposite. No support, no unification, no belief, no hope, nobody willing to read deeper than the surface or the statute or discover why things are the way they are... just 99.99% nits that get off on arguing just to argue. And when a salient point is made, I swear, it's like arguing with my ex-wife... just keep devolving your original arguments to the same two or three points of contention. Surface drivel. ALL CAPS BIASED SLAMS.

This nutcase has better things to be doing than trying to win over converts and support for our cause in these forums.

To any and all sympicatos that want to take an active part in our mission to free professional poker from the confines of the gambling cartel's luckbox casinos, and take back what was originally ours to begin with, and work with government officials to ensure that what we are doing is legitimate... we hold nightly meetings at 6:30pm every day and a monthly general meeting on the second to last Tuesday of each month. This is where the movement started, where it is activated, and where the changes necessary to make threads like this a thing of the past will take place.

Leaving aside any speculation as to why you created the second account, the casual observer to this thread doesn't know you're one person.

Someone might actually read this and believe that two people shared your opinion, or that they were talking to two room owners.

Did you all hear that folks?

We all get keys to the door and the combination to the safe! If no tournament is scheduled, we can borrow the equipment and take it home. Paint the walls if you want. 100% equal benefit.

Not that stringent? Regardless, if you did an FBI background check on each of your employees i would be surprised.
You have at least one dealer there that would not, under any circumstance qualify for a state license today.

BTW do your patrons feel safer because your employees ( at least several) are openly armed?

*shrug* Some of my home game guests are armed.

Do they allow players to be armed at TTJ?

They may not realize it, but unless they have a specific posted prohibition, they do tacitly allow them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...ate%29#Arizona

hey john, you worked at a club that was basically stealing from customers. and now u run a club, where lot of people are curious whose money was used to start ttj. i mean you john you maybe a nice guy outside of these poker rooms but inside your as greedy as the devil.

" Okay folks typically when a person wins a hand they tip about 5% of the pot"

those are your exact words when you dealt at poker union

when you dealt cards if you didnt get a tip from the customer man the look you gave wow, and suddenly know your all about optional. What ever man. Blow your smoke to people that don't know you.

I am curious if they have a posted prohibition. I wouldn't want to play in a public card room where players are allowed to carry. ( i own and carry also)
Just because you CAN carry does not mean you have the mental/analytic faculties to carry/use a weapon responsibly. I dont trust a room full of poker players with guns.
There is way to much room for emotion with some random pissed of guy/gal who just lost a big pot and suddenly starts swinging a pistol around whether they pull the trigger or not. The second that weapon is drawn, someone else will make a decision to pull their own in defense, it would get ugly really quick.

Count me in as a casual observer to this thread that did not know these two accounts were the same person.

Thanks for letting me/us know that they were.

FYI: typing this on my phone with my original account. With web-based forums, there is no need to create a second account to post from a different platform (either hardware or software based). Even Macs have a web browser. Therefore, to my perception then, this second account is intended to deceive others regarding the support for your cause, that you have more numbers then you actually do.

Based on your behavior here, there is no way I'd set foot in your establishment - I don't think it's all that safe to play there. Plus the BIA stuff is just wacky to almost bigoted.

Based on the history of this geographical area, I'll give the tribes the benefit of the doubt. At least if I happen to hit my two-outer on the river, the risk of having a weapon drawn is extremely slight.

I wonder if I refuse the button charge and to tip if I'd still be welcome to play? Probably not, but I will not test the theory out either.

Yeah be careful, if you don't tip everytime, they will only give you dirty looks, muck your cards as fast as possible if you don't have a card protector on them and oops burn and turned to fast sorry. Thats the kind crap that happens in these places when you dont bow down to the KING OF THE POKER ROOM AND THERE HIGHLY TALENTS DEALERS!!

Haha, I knew we were in for some fun when your fresh face showed up. So what's your beef? You liar.

> "Okay folks typically when a person wins a hand they tip about 5% of the pot" those are your exact words when you dealt at poker union

Says the liar. Really. If asked, I tell patrons a toke, maybe two depending on pot size. That's the way people do it. That's ALWAYS been the way I tell people.

> when you dealt cards if you didnt get a tip from the customer man the look you gave wow, and suddenly know your all about optional. What ever man. Blow your smoke to people that don't know you.

You don't know me, smoky liar. I don't know you, but I know by your lies on this public forum that you don't know me.

I wasn't gonna respond any more, but FYI, I've never said 5% of the pot, maybe 5% of a tournament win less entry, and hey pal, that's dirt arse cheap. Further, I'm the staunch defender of people's rights not to tip at all, and I've reamed a dealer who tosses back a $1 toke to the player scooping a $600 pot. You're the one blowing smoke noob, and you have the advantage to know me by name. Why are YOU hiding? LOL

The look I gave... you're so full of crap. Why are you even here with your 14 noob-fresh posts? gotta axe to grind? Come on down to the club and talk to me like a man. Till then, don't spew any more diarrhea.

Seeing as to how you've apparently visited TTJ took, then you obviously have seen our posted sign on the matter. Please enjoy our chain-saw free zone.

No dealers, no players, no guns at TTJ. This is getting stupider by the day. I'm so done coming here to be attacked, even if you can post more outlandish lies and speculation.

You don't qualify for a state license.

Our dealers all passed their background checks. Do you even know who our dealers are? Obviously you know one. Deal ya a bad beat at CA 5 years ago and ya got him fired hey? See how fun it is to speculate and lie? It's easy. Your turn again now. Go.

Too many axe grinding nits to make this forum fun, or even beneficial, for anything anymore.

Here's the thing kids... in a private social club, comprised of adults, you have the option of coming, going, staying or leaving. If you don't wanna play in strip mall clubs, fine, go to the casinos. But don't sit back and cast lies in a public forum hiding behind anonymity just because you are (fill in the blank).

Sorry, I am not as tech-savvy as you Stoner.

But thank you captain obvious.

Please reread my second, most recent disclaimer re: Jobo / John. I am too lazy and don't care. I created Jobo first, then many months later, foolishly returnerd. Didn't remember my log and pass. Keep in mind, I'm a lazy ass, right? OMG I made a second account! I'm such a bad bad man.

Sue me. Delete me. Ban me. The nits in this forum, are NOT the types of players we want anyway, so frankly, I don't care if you base your opinion of me solely on my ability to stand up for what I believe in and call out the real BS artists and liars. Those lazy farts that claim to be pro poker and have resources, their 2+2 pals and chums. Again, Stoner, I'm so done in here, it's such a repetitive waste of time.

> Therefore, to my perception then, this second account is intended to deceive others regarding the support for your cause, that you have more numbers then you actually do.

Ya, there's two of us, and we've stated we're the same, and we talk in the first person, and it's not my fault if you are stupid, or easily duped, or even after reading my explanation still unable to change your perception. I don't care.

> Based on your behavior here, there is no way I'd set foot in your establishment - I don't think it's all that safe to play there.

Good. One less fool to worry.

> Plus the BIA stuff is just wacky to

"BIA Stuff"... see, you don't know what it is about. "Stuff". LOL

> almost bigoted

Wow. If you only knew, and if I had the desire to share with you, the fact that you've got it backwards and your ignorance makes you a racist bigot because you continue to support a corrupt and fraudulent agency that racially segregates it's wards in domestic dependent nations all in the name of protecting them and their heritage (because after 180 years they still can't do that themselves) all the while congress orders states to bow down to their own conspiracy to collude with the gambling industry and make native american's our bookies.

Ya, I'm a bigot idiot.

Bigoted? Haha. How do I start a new thread.

> Based on the history of this geographical area, I'll give the tribes the benefit of the doubt.

More ignorance. These are not tribal casinos. These are BIA casinos. The tribes DO NOT OWN the land they live on and they sure the hell don't OWN THE CASINOS.

In fact, the government owns the casinos. Your government. You. Slavemaster.

More yelling. More ignorant grammar. Of course, you know you must be right about everything you say because you're so smart. You win. Well played, sir.

Where do I go to delete my account?

So, you do or do not have a posted sign at the entry to your room that says no firearms pursuant to ARS 4-229?

Sheesh John, get pissed off over your own trivial mistakes much?

The rules here say you get one account, for exactly the reason that Eric mentioned -- he though you were two people.

Was it too much to ask you (once, I might add) to stick to one account without throwing some sort of hissy fit about it?

Was it too much for you to go, "Oops, my bad, sorry, I fixed it" instead of acting like we shot your puppy?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/55...ban-me-204579/

PM Ryan Beal or Mike Haven for permanent bans.

john, you need to first stop and think that all these post are not attacking your club specificaly, when i write about the things that are going on, yes they are going on in places some more some less, You wouldn't agree to that.

and yes john you were all about the tip when you were working at poker union. you may not be like that now but you were like that.

i mean lets sit here and think what is manipulation in the game, when dealers sit down and play with players thats fine, but when they sit there just to be a warm body so the button fee goes from 1 to 2 dollars that isnt manipulating the game.

how about also when those same players and owners of these clubs sit and play with there customers and dealer or owners playing loses his money he just goes back and grabs another rack. i mean i have seen dealers in clubs here get in to the game for 500-1000. i would rather see show me your cash buyin not just going on the houses book or should i say dealers and owners have a unlimited buy in amount to bust you out. So that there isn't influencing the game? by keeping the game going, making the game juicy, and eventually tring to take your own customers buyin with your house money that isnt even there, i mean i don't know about ttj but how many times did a club owner say hold i pay you back tommorow or the owners has to leave to get money due to his dealers or friends or himself lose that evening.

Explain to me that has no effect on a game