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"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! "Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode!

01-17-2010 , 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder
Look that up on Google did you? Many writers don't follow that stupid rule that has been taught in grade school. It's like the obsolete rule for not beginning sentences with conjunctions (which some teachers still teach). Good writers tend to do what makes sense and avoids confusion.
I've yet to see any published or academic writer that disregards the "period inside quotations rule." Good writers don't ostentatiously flout accepted grammatical rules just because they think they're silly. In this case, breaking the rule would cause much more confusion than following it.

Furthermore, test your theory out in any freshman Comp 101 class and see how far you get.

Last edited by ATAT; 01-17-2010 at 04:30 PM. Reason: Talking about Americans, to be clear
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw
There you go.

Clue: The USA is not the only country in the world.

American English may use this weird and completely illogical (your quote admits it has nothing to do with logic in the US - whereas other English speaking people do use a logical system) rule but plain English does not.
This
Quote:

you're wrong. american usage almost always puts commas and periods inside the quotation. exceptions are made if the comma or period would cause confusion (such as quoting a url), or when a parenthetical reference immediately follows; phb's use falls under neither category.
Is the quote in question. We're discussing the American usage. How dense are you, really?
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATAT
I've yet to see any published or academic writer that disregards the "period inside quotations rule." Good writers don't ostentatiously flout accepted grammatical rules just because they think they're silly. In this case, breaking the rule would cause much more confusion than following it.
Presumably you are still at a fairly early stage in your school career and have yet to be exposed to any literature from the world at large.

Or perhaps you simply don't read books?

Either way, I can assure you that educated and literate Americans have no trouble reading texts from the rest of the world despite the fact that they will use a different rule to the one you are so adamant is some sort of global absolute.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw
You may or may not be in crazy town but if you think that your saying something makes it correct you are certainly crazy.

Like your associate you neglect to provide any evidence for your dogmatically prescriptive view.
Also, I found this error in your above post. Following your logic, I now find your opinion on this matter (and everything else) completely irrelevant.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:33 PM
What happens when you are asking a question that ends in a quotation? If the quotation isn't a question itself, is it just better to rearrange the sentence?

Poor example:

-What's the deal with people saying "I could care less"?
or
-What's the deal with people saying "I could care less?"
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATAT
We're discussing the American usage.
You may be discussing US usage. I was talking about usage in general.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATAT
Also, I found this error in your above post. Following your logic, I now find your opinion on this matter (and everything else) completely irrelevant.
That is because you do not understand the fundamental difference between someone who demonstrates, repeatedly, incorrect capitalisation and a simple, single letter omission, typo.

Perhaps the distinction is a little subtle for you?
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikech
you're wrong. american usage almost always puts commas and periods inside the quotation. exceptions are made if the comma or period would cause confusion (such as quoting a url), or when a parenthetical reference immediately follows; phb's use falls under neither category.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder
Look that up on Google did you? Many writers don't follow that stupid rule that has been taught in grade school. It's like the obsolete rule for not beginning sentences with conjunctions (which some teachers still teach). Good writers tend to do what makes sense and avoids confusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw
I'd go with Spadebidder's take.

Putting it inside the quote is both illogical and ******ed.

Also, why would anyone take lessons from someone with so little literacy that they cannot even use the correct capitalisation?
.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:43 PM
^^ Thanks for proving my point.

I ventured an opinion on what was sensible and logical, not on whether or not any particular group of people had or had not adopted a ******ed system.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw
That is because you do not understand the fundamental difference between someone who demonstrates, repeatedly, incorrect capitalisation and a simple, single letter omission, typo.

Perhaps the distinction is a little subtle for you?
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that mikech is just being informal on a message board--or do you actually think he doesn't know he should capitalize words at the beginning of sentences?

You, otoh, are being a smug little prick, and an incorrect one, at that. Is that distinct enough for you?
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:46 PM
Regardless of what they do in the UK, putting punctuation inside the quotation marks isn't just some "silly grade school rule" in the US. It's correct according to Associated Press, Chicago, and I assume most other reputable style guides.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw
^^ Thanks for proving my point.

I ventured an opinion on what was sensible and logical, not on whether or not any particular group of people had or had not adopted a ******ed system.
THE QUOTE YOU WERE AGREEING WITH WAS INCORRECT ABOUT AMERICAN USAGE. STOP MOVING THE GOAL POSTS, PLEASE.

Also, to be absolutely clear so you don't get confused, I know every word in a sentence shouldn't be capitalized.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:48 PM
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATAT
Actually, I think it's pretty clear that mikech is just being informal on a message board--or do you actually think he doesn't know he should capitalize words at the beginning of sentences?
As far as illiteracy goes: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

Quote:
You, otoh, are being a smug little prick, and an incorrect one, at that. Is that distinct enough for you?
Don't you think it might be a good idea to calm down a little.

You seem to have got yourself rather worked up.

Maybe a quiet lie down in a darkened room?
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATAT
THE QUOTE YOU WERE AGREEING WITH WAS INCORRECT ABOUT AMERICAN USAGE. STOP MOVING THE GOAL POSTS, PLEASE.

Also, to be absolutely clear so you don't get confused, I know every word in a sentence shouldn't be capitalized.
Seriously, calm down.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miajag
Regardless of what they do in the UK, putting punctuation inside the quotation marks isn't just some "silly grade school rule" in the US.
That was spadebidder's take. I'm not even sure what a 'grade school' is.

I was merely agreeing with him that the rule was illogical.

Unfortunately ATAT has got his panties in a terrible bunch over it. He'll probably calm down in a while.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:55 PM
wow qpw sucks
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATAT
Also, to be absolutely clear so you don't get confused, I know every word in a sentence shouldn't be capitalized.
That's all right.

I know you have got yourself a bit worked up and needed to have a good shout.

Do you feel better now?
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baumer
What happens when you are asking a question that ends in a quotation? If the quotation isn't a question itself, is it just better to rearrange the sentence?

Poor example:

-What's the deal with people saying "I could care less"?
or
-What's the deal with people saying "I could care less?"
This falls under the "unless it causes confusion" portion of the rule. Generally, a writer will put the ? outside the quotation marks so that it won't cause a distraction to the reader. So, generally, the former would be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miajag
Regardless of what they do in the UK, putting punctuation inside the quotation marks isn't just some "silly grade school rule" in the US. It's correct according to Associated Press, Chicago, and I assume most other reputable style guides.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daryn
wow qpw sucks
This a hundred times.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 05:40 PM
I'm a punctuation-on-the-outside guy even though I know I'm breaking the rule. I tend to be a nit, but following the rule makes writing less clear. Since it's not a universal rule anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with putting punctuation marks outside of the quotation marks.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 05:48 PM
Saying that it makes writing less clear is sort of vague and unfair. Often times it is perfectly fine and detracts absolutely nothing from the sentence or the meaning.

If you're just always putting it outside the marks and saying it makes writing "less clear" then you're kind of cheating. I'm not sure who or what you're cheating, though.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloAJ
I'm not sure whom or what you're cheating, though.
No?

Of course I'm struggling to come up with an example of it being confusing. I suppose it has to be something where I'm asking a question and it's not clear whether or not the quotation is a question. Same is true of when adding emphasis with an exclamation point.

So what is the rule when quoting a question in a regular sentence. For example, earlier in the thread ATAT asked "Is that distinct enough for you?". I'm not sure using either system how to punctuate that. The question mark would go inside either way, but I'm not sure about the period. It looks weird putting a question mark then a period, but it looks weirder to me to not end with a period.

edit: I'm even less sure about a question without a question. Did Bush really say "is our children learning?"? That looks ridiculous so I'm thinking you must just leave it at the inside question mark in either system.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 07:14 PM
Big Nick's in New York.

"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baumer
What happens when you are asking a question that ends in a quotation? If the quotation isn't a question itself, is it just better to rearrange the sentence?

Poor example:

-What's the deal with people saying "I could care less"?
or
-What's the deal with people saying "I could care less?"
Yeah I need clarification on this. I'm the guy who originally put the punctuation outside the quotes itt, sparking the awesome, yet terrible debate that followed.

Regardless of correctitude, I would in this case also put the "?" outside the quotation, because what is being quoted is a statement, and what is being asked (the question) is independent of that statement.

But apparently this is totally wrong in America.

Also I do not believe you can contract "Vehicles" with "V's". I mean can a measly little " ' " mark really take the place of six letters? That seems egregious, and a lot of work for the " ' " symbol.
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote
01-17-2010 , 08:13 PM
According to Associated Press style, you only use an apostrophe when pluralizing single letters. For example, both of the following are correct:

"I bought two CDs at the record store today."

"I got two D's on my report card."
"Grammar" and "Punctuation" nit's unite! You're "head" will literally explode! Quote

      
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