Lol of course it's a made up scenario, where did I say there was evidence for it?

Show me evidence of anything that could happen 200 years from now.

At the moment there are about 1.3 babies to every death, so you don't actually need a massive swing to get a negative balance, and at the moment there are clearly a huge amount of gay people who do procreate.

Is it impossible that 30% of people are gay in the future? Not in my opinion. And if we lived in a world where every gay person felt totally able to come out, and therefore be unlikely to procreate, then you'd probably see a negative balance in that scenario.

I mean, too many people on the planet anyway so I'm all for it tbh.

I can confirm that this is exactly true.

I find your use of the word 'spread' distasteful in the extreme.

But anyway:

I would classify it as one of the most positive things to happen in the history of mankind. Up there with a cure for cancer.

Exactly. Much of the talk in this thread is so outdated and unscientific that it sounds like it comes from ignorant teenagers.

Yes, being gay is genetic. No, dressing someone up as a woman will not make them gay.

Just wow!

OK fine, but I'm obviously not intending to use it in a homophobic way.

What's your take on the nature/nurture issue? Did your parents notice a gradual change as you reached maturity or has it always been self-evident?

I'm actually fascinated by this and have been given completely contradictory ideas by my gay friends so I think it's interesting to look at it on a case by case basis.

I think whilst it probably isn't 100% genetic, the other factors are certainly nothing to do with how you were brought up whatsoever.

Your other question is just bizarre.

Did your parents notice a gradual change as you reached maturity or has it always been self evident?

If it's not 100% genetic, what are the other factors if not to do with your upbringing? This doesn't necessarily mean just parenting style, I would suggest upbringing includes anything and everything you experience, i.e. your environment

I mean in your sexuality, i.e. did they always have suspicions that you were gay, and from what age, or did you have to tell them? Apart from heavily religious families I have yet to hear someone say their parents were genuinely oblivious, and it seems to be pre-sexual maturity that the signs develop on the whole.

You don't have to share this obv, I just think it's interesting.

Incidently, does anyone know of any cases where someone has genuinely not come to the realisation that they are gay before the age of about ~18? (And in this I include being confused/curious etc) I haven't, and I think if it's largely true then it supports the genetic argument.

Obviously many people don't come out until much later in life but often say "I've always know" or similar.

Don't be so quick to believe there are always "signs" that tell parents their children are gay/bi. I mean what kind of signs are we talking about here? Talking with a lisp? Wearing ladies' clothes? Watching too much WWE?

The 'signs' are based on what parents have said, anecdotal evidence of course but I think this is not uncommon.

How else does a parent suspect their son is gay at age 12 or even earlier? I assume he isn't bringing boys home and introducing them as their partner.

I don't know what the signs are, it may just be an overall gut feeling I suppose.

Happy to see this thread. Much needed, imo. I didn't know anyone in the poker world that was openly gay until fairly recently. Worse, it took that person coming out for it to even occur to me that I didn't know someone in the poker community that was openly gay. Poker, and more generally gambling, is an extremely male-directed, heteronormative culture, and until more attention is brought to it, it's extremely unlikely to change.

As "accepting" as some would claim poker to be, it has (fairly obviously in my opinion) had trouble divesting itself of the cultural legacy of gambling as a symbol for male heterosexual masculinity (I'm not going to bother backing this up right now, but if people really need me to I can). That being the case, it's not hard to see why homosexuality could be viewed as threatening to the world of poker, particularly when so many of the behaviors that comprise live poker could easily be termed erotic (i.e. the stare downs and general atmosphere of playful competition). As soon as you start chipping away at the associations between poker (or sports) and male heterosexual identity, you endanger poker's status as a safe forum for the expression of male homosocial desire.

For example, earlier in this thread, someone joked that people might be less likely to stare at JCarver at the table now, as they wouldn't want him to get the wrong idea, and I found that an fairly prescient comment. Simply having a gay person at the table will likely force people to recognize the eroticism already present in their own stare. It isn't as though they're staring any differently, and the game is the same, but by making the object of the stare gay, the safety net of heteronormativity has been removed; they aren't afraid that the stare will be misinterpreted as desire, they're afraid that the stare will be correctly interpreted as desire (I should note that, while there is a sexual component to desire, I don't necessarily mean that any two people that stare at each other across the poker table want to have sex, there are lots of levels of desire). Similarly, it's somewhat rare for heterosexual males to host parties where they invite only men, but if you start counting home games (or sports, either watching or playing, where the behaviors are similarly erotic), it happens all the time.

Actually, gender atypical behavior is considered a potential marker - studies of people who currently identify as gay and their parents often report higher levels of gender atypical behavior, although self-report retrospective studies have inherent limitations.

I think anyone who has ever been a little different can attest that kids are viciously cruel to another child that doesn't always follow the herd, and sometimes adults are little better.

sigh...sad that a straight woman knows more about gay studies than a homosexual man.

That just means you have a real life and I'm a nerd.

Also I've been reading tons for my dissertation research. In any event, it's hardly a perfect marker - some gender atypical children grow up straight, and some people who later identify as gay don't report higher gender atypical behaviors from when they were children (nor do their parents). But yes, the research suggests (not conclusively proven) that the more gender atypical behaviors a child shows, the more likely they are to grow up LGB.

Like everything else, it's just another small link in an incredibly complex and not yet fully understood phenomenon.

So, the couple in Canada who decided to bring their children up in a gender neutral environment - the research suggests that they are more likely to be LGB? or is this not what is meant by gender atypical?

That whole thing seems like child abuse to me, not from a sexuality point, but surely it's got to make them much more likely to have psychological issues over being able to identify with others, understanding themselves etc etc

A single family like this isn't going to really present a valid experiment, but to answer your question I think the answer would be no. Gender neutral environment generally just means not placing pressure for children to act in specific ways, like giving toy cars and guns to boys and dolls and china sets to girls and suggesting there's something wrong about a boy liking dolls or a girl who likes sports.

Research has pretty consistently shown, however, that some gender behaviors are just hardwired. In general, boys are more aggressive and combative, and girls are more nurturing and cooperative, and their play reflects that, no matter how many dolls and tea sets you put in front of boys and how many guns you put in front of girls.

It's not child abuse, though, not by a long shot.

How about a same sex couple (male) bringing up a male child?

Studies of children raised by same sex couples have shown that those children are no more likely to be gay than any other, regardless of the gender of the child raised.

I don't accept that those children are not at a higher risk of either psychological disorder, or simply not being able to live a happy life because of the decision their parents have made.

That is child abuse imo, but then I also think bringing your kid up a devout Christian/Muslim/Jew etc is child abuse so I guess it's all relative.

I think you have an extremely broad definition of the term "child abuse".

Everybody has quirks, to a greater or lesser extent, because of how they are raised. Placing a value judgement that raising your child to believe that sex before marriage is a sin is tantamount to abuse, or some other normal example of a value that one group might impose that another disagrees with, would mean that extremely high percentages of the population are abusing their children in one form or another, and that seems extreme.

It might not be an optimal environment for a child to grow up without what society would consider to be normative gender behaviors, but that's not abusive, in my opinion, unless those beliefs or behaviors give rise to serious physical, emotional, psychological, or social impairments. A guy who is somewhat gender neutral or not as masculine as other guys doesn't meet that standard.

+1

My parents never suspected I was gay or notice any changes in my behaviour. It would be quite strange if they did given I am heterosexual mind you.

Did your parents ever notice any changes in your behaviour or suspect you were straight?

No I don't believe anything a person experiences affects their sexuality. It may be caused by factors in the womb, genetic mutations, lots of things, but you don't turn gay because of something that happened in your life. What possible things could you even be thinking of?

i can confirm this. Studies also show that children raised by gay couples are more likely to be happy and healthy. When a couple has to work really hard just to have a child legally in any manner, they are far more likely to be good and devoted parents then some 17 year olds kids who didn't have safe sex.

Whether your parents are gay or straight, there or not there, there has been little to show either way that this has impact. Homosexuality is 99% likely caused by genes and hormones.

<3 you page.

Yes it is 2012. But unfortunately many people do care if you are gay. There are still an overwhelming amount of ignorant people that discriminate and promote physical violence toward gay people. This is a big step.

Just because you dont experience discrimination and hate, doesnt mean that is does not exist and does not happen on a daily basis.

There's also the intra-uterine environment, among other things.

I didn't know until I was 18. I didn't feel confused before that, either. However, looking back, it should have been obvious to me, I just wasn't interpreting my feelings accurately.

Also those people are more likely to have adopted a child, which means they definitely planned for the child and were more likely to be prepared to raise a child.