Not quite the same when you have to look down at a screen to see your opponent's intimidating huge stack of chips.

I've played on these machines and to me it's the worst of both worlds.

MAP however looks really cool

I stayed in Vegas on Thursday night and the entire time I was in the Aria poker room this table was empty. Do they only offer it at certain times? Only person I saw that even sat down at the table was some girl that needed a place to rest her head.

Why isn't it the same? You would be more intimidated if someone had a castle of chips equaling 4k but if its on a screen you don't care anymore? Makes no sense. Chips slow the game down more than any other aspect...I just think for MAP to be successful taking chips out may help....or it should at least be tried

I just can't see this working at low limits - people (tourists) can barely handle one dealer and one set of chips.. but looks very fun for experienced players. Based on that video - there's definitely some potential.

Me..? I don't care nor see a difference. I prefer online to live for many reasons, but after having been forced to play live since BF, I get the idea that live players love having those filthy, herpes contaminated chips in their hands.

I love filthy chips being pushed my way.

The games have only been running after about 7 or 8pm. Last night there was no game. The reason being, we are only allowed to spread limit holdem. We had a lot of interest for no-limit but can not spread it until later this week.

I myself would have agreed with you and may have stated the same thing 2 weeks ago before the game went into action. However, I now must disagree. A lot of people who played were what you and I would call FISH. They loved it.

Why the fish love the Pond (MAP)
If you think about it, it makes sense. Why do casual players go to the casino to play poker? is it to watch sports center, or hang out with the guys and talk about girls (or vice/versa)? No, I believe they come to play poker. They come to the casino to PLAY poker. Where can they play the most poker/hands? MULTI ACTION POKER. A couple other things I have noticed is that while playing MAP, the casual player sees more pocket aces, kings, etc. They win more hands (they lose a lot more too). They have a great time and they have fun. If the casual player is having fun, they will keep playing the game.
One other item to be aware of is that it seems the female player is a little more adept at playing multiple hands at once.


Wait until you grab 2 pots at once on MAP. What a rush!!

You, me, and 99.99% of 2p2 would not feel any different. However, 75% of fish would. They like chips. They like having a few decent size stacks and pretending they are some high rolling baller. They say stupid things like "oh he's playing big stack poker, bullying people with his chip lead" AT A CASH GAME...and are dead serious.

And has been noted many times in this thread, making the fish enjoy themselves is the single most important thing for a game to survive.

Tim when are u bringing this to PA? I'm sure there a casinos here looking for competitive edges?

Or do u want to figure it out in nv first?

Maybe it's because I don't get to play live very often (and only in Vegas like once every two years) or maybe I am a fish (reasonably likely), but I really like having chips in front of me, regardless of whether they are filthy and it just wouldn't be the same to me if it was a screen with a Stars-esque stack balance displayed.

My closest live game is about an hour's drive and I don't think I would go if the tables were card/dealer/chip-less. Just my £0.0127 though.

I like this idea however I can't see this working for big bet games. Just as well IMO because I think limit games needs a rejuvenation in players (this coming from a person who only plays NL).

I think this will work great for NL. I can't wait to play two 2/5 games this way. I love also the way this benefits both players who play for fun and love the action as well as grinders and casinos.

I hope Tim becomes very successfull and gets to ship this idea to the entire country and world.

Due to the additional revenue potential I think this will take off quickly once approved by nv.

Omg im a live grinder and when they say that **** it drives me nuts, I dont know why their lack of understanding on this concept bugs me. Im having to listen to their poker strategy right now. Trying to just smile and ignore em while i read 2+2.

P.S. ive noticed a lot of the fish enjoy puting in chips and watching the cards rollout and do magical things. I think MAP will have interest epecially to the action junkies/ degens. Interesred to see how no-limit goes.

hmmm, interesting. makes sense now that I think about it...

My response: players say they don't want to pay "double rake" on these MAP tables (peculiar sentiment, as it would still be taken per hand, based on pot size - so that's like complaining that fast dealers rake "more") - the casino has stated it will only take a max of $3/hand versus the usual max of $4/hand. Now, dismissing the fact that people may(will) be folding more, thus not hitting the max as often - let's assume for simplicity that it's $3 and $4 per hand. It seems to me that 20 hands at $4 would be $80 down the chute, and 25 hands at $3 would be $75. As a player, I like this concept. As a proprietor, I'm not sure where the "ADDITIONAL REVENUE POTENTIAL" is, especially when you consider you're paying at least double the labor (2x dealer, and anywhere from 0-1 extra floormen for rulings - they had a designated floorman to stay by the table the first night), so revenue per square foot doesn't seem any better either. If the idea is just something to bring in more customers, great, it might work. However, the room is basically at capacity every night already, so perhaps a different property within the MGM Resorts family would be a better fit. (I would say Bellagio or MGM off the top of my head, for many obvious reasons.)
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And, from Tim Frazin: "I think you either misunderstood the dealer or they misspoke. The limit game flies. I didn't really want to list numbers because no-limit when introduced will not get near as many hands in as limit. I believe the dealer was telling you that each dealer was dealing about 22 hands per down. Meaning 44 hands total or about 80-90 per hour, which would be accurate. No-limit will NOT run that fast. This is limit it is 1 chip 2 chip, no bet sizing. I repeat no-limit will not get that many hands. "
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My response: Just to be clear: I am not rooting AGAINST this product/idea.
(also, I was not the "dealer" in question, giving information above - so I'm not refuting/confirming whatever they said)

I have played (limit/NL) for 16 years, and been in poker/gaming industry for 15 years (mostly floor, shift manager, assistant casino manager, and gaming manager, some dealing). I've also played over 2 million hands online (mostly 12-16 tabling.) I understand the differences between limit/NL and live/online.
However, I defy you to find a SINGLE dealer that can get out 22 hands of their own in 30 minutes, on this layout, while another dealer/game is running concurrently. 80-90/hour (for limit holdem, easily the fastest game to deal) is unfathomable. My best guess (and that of other skilled/efficient dealers, which are rare imo) would be that if an "average" table averages 20 hands per half hour, this table would max out at around 25 per half hour (combining the two dealers' total hands dealt). Perhaps, with a knowledgeable and attentive lineup, with two very proficient dealers, it'd be possible to see 30 hands in 30 minutes, total. But I was frequently able to get out 30 hands in one down when I used to deal limit holdem (in the quicker games, obviously not 4/8 - but 30/60 or 100/200 at Bellagio, we could consistently get 26-32).
By way of example, before the table was available for MAP, it was being used for "regular" poker: I dealt a 2/5 game on table 22 and dealt 27 hands, I then dealt a 2/5 game on table 23 (where the MAP layout was being used, but as a single "game") and dealt 17 hands. Granted, this was before they removed the wooden slats, but the other improvements to the layout wouldn't affect a single game in any way (although much improved for 2-handed play, imo). The table is bigger, making pitching cards to players more difficult. It's very tough to reach cards/chips in front of seats #2/#3, due to longer table, and shuffle machine where your left leg would normally be (I'm 6'5", reaching is not normally a shortcoming for me in the box). The games were comparable, first table was 8-9 handed the entire time, MAP table was 7-9 handed throughout, with lots of turnover as people were snap-table changing away from it when available (due to the layout/difficulty, obviously not as a protest of the MAP concept in general.)

** I'm all in favor of innovations, especially if it results in faster games and more hands per hour. I often complain about slow games, but not "bad" river cards. Again, I'm not trying to sabotage this operation, but wanted to clarify some of the "facts" being bandied about.
I support the project/innovator, and applaud Aria for embracing something radical that may revolutionize the game. I hope I don't sound critical, and I'm positive I haven't "leaked" any proprietary information about Aria or its' poker room. That's not my place, nor would it ever be my intention. Please don't post any fragmented quotes from this post, attributed to me, out of context.

im curious, how does one go about inventing such a game? are patents required, what are the legal procedures? and how long does it take?

I'll pay 4 dollar rake on both games if they are running no-limit and theres donkies at the table. Pay 6 at my my casino and 5 + 1 before you get cards.

Under OPTIMAL circumstances hand picking your dealers and hand picking the players in the game, it's possible. But under real world day-to-day conditions in a poker room, not a chance.

Does NL start tonight? Would be very interested to see how it works if so.

They played mix tonight for like a hour before the game broke.

would be interesting to run a tournament series on MAP. two tourneys going at the same time, no time is wasted.

i honestly think if we want more hands per hour, we should start giving players a time bank just like online where everyone only gets 30 secs to think before his hand is dead! live players take wayyyyy too long for a hand and that is the main reason nlhe is so slow and boring live.

well time bank is a separate issue. I like the way live works. But i would love to play more hands via this MAP concept.

I think all the "problems" are way overrated. Playing two hands live will be just as easy as playing 1. We are playing 1k hands per hour online, we will be able to manage 40-60.

I agree it could slow down a little, however dealers are basically free and the table should not cost that much more. So I can only see advantages for both players and casino. Dealers might suffer slightly as there might be alittle less hands, but then utilization of the property should be huge and mean more work overall for them.


I can only see upsides, and certainly some players won;t like it and just not play.

Would never work. People w ould bust one side and it would revert to a regular tourney for all but a few players per table