Oh nooooooooooooo the riggie bolded underlined interrogation haz begun..... the bold + underline means he's reeeeeeeallllly on to something.

This page indicates that I've made 502 posts:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/mi...osted&t=255990

I assume that includes all posts made that were subsequently merged into this thread.

To complex an algorithm to compute?
.....oh, sorry, i misread.....unwilling.

Maybe Josem could help.

btw, I note you failed to respond to the underlying issue.

Why do you want to turn this into a discussion of personalities, instead of a discussion of issues? Why do you want to play the man, and not the ball?

So it is reasonable to assume that this is a possibility and it has not been disproven by any known study or audit of any kind? I think that once you move beyond the nonsensical "pokerstars gave me AA and player X sucked out on me with 10/Q because his account is favored and mine is cursed" rants and think about how a profit driven and loosely regulated company could handicap their site to increase their profits, there are a lot of possibilities. Many of the possibilities could be very difficult to prove. It's tough to say how far a company would go to generate millions and millions of extra dollars when sceptics can be dismissed by simply blaming variance.

Because attacking people personally is what they love to do on the internet... anytime you throw your opinion into the arena, its open season on your character and you will get roasted!!

Im so glad I participated in this discussion!!!

Sorry, josem, I am new to 2+2 and was sifting through the link you supplied.
BTW, the quick, direct answer speaks volumes.

I really want to supply the proof if it exists. I try to believe it doesn't. I am in two games right now, so not quite a 'riggie'.

I am just observing and drawing what appears to be logical conclusions:

1) Not every 'legit' is a shill. It would be silly to suggest.
2) It is logical for a billion dollars industry to protect it's interests. Monitoring this thread is certainly in the interest of online poker sites.
3) A 'rumor' that online poker is rigged is specifically against the interests of said billion dollar industry.
4) For a billion dollar industry, it would would be cheap and easy to swarm anyone who says the word rigged at 2+2 with a slew of logic, confusion and insults.
5) A perfectly legitimate site should still see paying writers for this thread economically beneficial.
6) A huge amount of posts in this thread come from a small number of posters, mostly on the side of 'legit'. (Josem openly supplied this information without hesitation)

Millions and millions? Good luck.

If you can demonstrate one such possibility where the deal can be rigged undetectably while increasing profits by what, 5%?... I believe you'll win $500. I'm pretty sure it's an open contest. Better get to work.

I am glad you participated. Please don't go.

Drawing an emotional response from you may well be a tactic of a shill. A shill would logically be paid to quiet a 'riggies' ideas. Nothing keeps you quieter than if you just go away because it's too draining, mentally and emotionally. Being insulted and being angry are not enjoyable experiences. Why bother?
For every arguement you make, you may well get refuted 5 times, and insulted 10. This is to be expected.

Continue to seek the truth. Use logic and reason only. Avoid getting emotional, as it would only play into a shills hands.

Unless you have proof, don't say poker is rigged. Just say you want to find the truth. Many people may scream if you claim poker is rigged without proof. Who could possibly object to someone seeking the truth??

That's funny because I don't see anybody objecting to people seeking the truth. If anything it's the complete opposite. I see people objecting to those who take a completely unscientific approach that can only get us nowhere. I see people objecting to the clowns who have incredibly intelligent people spell out specifically with facts why their contentions are wrong, only to be ignored by those clowns who continue on making the same old tired arguments that don't have a leg to stand on.

I'd LOVE to see ONE riggie come in with an open enough mind to actually work through the data in a constructive way. But that's generally not what riggies do, is it?

Again, without irrational people like that, we don't even have a thread here. Why? Because to date there is ZERO evidence of rigging. And if somebody wants to come up with some crackpot theory of how a site could screw people out of their money, well that's just great. I could come up with theories about how riggies are hiding under my bed if I want to. If you're not prepared to do even the most basic amount of testing to see if those theories are true, then you don't deserve the benefit of anyone taking you seriously. You have to provide some substance if you want to receive substance in return.

While I agree with you there is too much insulting around here, do you really need to go to the level of "shill" to find motive? Look in EVERY thread on this site. Really. Also, most riggies here take the insults as inspiration that they are "on the right track". Nothing can shut them up!


This is good advice, why present it as subterfuge? Really, that's all the "shills" have been saying.

I'm curious, riggies: who do you guys think are really shills? All the regs breaking down riggie arguments? Some of them? C'mon guys, name names. Tell us your suspicions - and what in particular about those individual posters makes you think they are hired by poker sites to post?

AP/UB shill, imo.

Yes.

You tend to find the better players are able to play poker the luckier they get.

This is what he has done from his opening post in this thread.

It's always amusing when someone like BS (Beaten Senseless) comes along.

He obviously thinks he's a cut above the usual rigtard poster but, in reality, he's just got his head so far up his own backside that he can't see what a muffin he is.

Read a few of my posts, then read a few of qpw's.

I dont think any professional poker site would hire someone dressed like Kermit the Frog!!!

HAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll quit insulting riggies when you guys grow up and debate like normal people. Normal people don't say things like "it's rigged because I lose to bad beats [when it's not], there's no regulation [when there is], the sites are evil and will stop at nothing to rip of their customers [so why play?], short stacks always win/lose [play short stacked & win/lose], withdrawal=boomswitch [you can't be w/d much if you believe this ****], etc, etc..
blah blah blah

He's quoting you and talking to.. you??

OK.

Your posts:

Someone jumping up and down like an overexcited schoolgirl.
Making wild accusations without evidence.
Making wild accusations that make no sense.
Ignoring any substantive points brought up in response to your posts.
Making ad hominem attacks on posters who disagree with you.

QPW's posts:

Using facts and logic to make his point.
Asking for evidence to back up allegations of wrong doing
Replying with facts and logic to any points brought up in response to his posts.
Making ad hominem attacks on posters who disagree with you.

So the only thing you have in common is: Making ad hominem attacks on posters who disagree with him.


Some may say QPW should lay off with the rudeness.
Others may say that with the wealth of substantive posts he's made on this subject he's entitled to show his displeasure of those who ignore comon sense and logic and call anyone who does not agree with them a shill.

Your usual tactic of ignoring anything that does not fit in with your agenda.

From yesterday:

Looking at senseless's lame attempt I got to thinking that the poker sites would probably prefer it if all the 'shills' gave up so the thread was just a never-ending continuum of ******ed posts along the lines of:

A: It's just so damn rigged.
B: Yes, it is.
C: Too true, bro.
D: I lost with KK last night.
B: That's nothing I lost with AA twice!
C: ZOMG rigged!!!
E: Ain't that the truth.
T: We need regulation.
A: Undoubtedly.
A: It's just so damn rigged.

rinse and repeat.

It isn't exactly a secret. You can easily see it for yourself if you just click on the 'replies' for this thread on the forum index.

Replies in bold:

It is possible that one or more poker sites have employed "shills" to join forums and defend their interests. Almost anything is possible. I really don't think it's happening here, though. Why pay for it and risk exposure for doing so when it's free, anyway?

Oh, and...

"Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win."
— Robert A. Heinlein

what is my agenda? my motive?

This has certainly happened.

It has, however, happened in cases where there is a very real and legitimate concern that would definitely affect the site's business interests. The AP/UB scandal was the most obvious example.

The idea that any site would give legitimacy to the paranoid postings on this thread is absurd.

The only people who would give the rigged theories here any credence are those who already believe that it's rigged and as they tend tend to keep up a continual play-lose-whine cycle anyway coming here would be very much -EV.

An open mind? Rational discourse?

Get the F*** outta this thread.

You tell us.