A lot of people have been asking me for an update on our case. After this post, I won’t be posting much more in this thread. But, this post will likely be somewhat lengthy. Anyhow, here’s our update:
Update:
It took about a week, but it looks like we finally got our bankroll from Full Tilt. It was a few hundred less than what was in our accounts, but apparently that is because Full Tilt has fees and Full Tilt does not cover those.
We also realized that Full Tilt’s “decision” email did not actually state whether we could use our ~800,000 FTPs and ~ 10,000 medals. So, we queried Full Tilt Security. Here’s Full Tilt’s response:
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We will not be accommodating your request to use the Full Tilt points or Medals on your account. These items have no monetary value. They are given by Full Tilt Poker as a reward or bonus to our loyal players in order for them to activate bonuses and redeem for items from our merchandise store. As such, players who are no longer welcome to play at Full Tilt Poker do not qualify for gratuities or rewards. In your case specifically, the exception we made in allowing you to cash out you full account balance will not extend to further benefits.
Following that email, Full Tilt said their decision was final and that the case was closed. Full Tilt has not responded to any further emails from us, so we believe any communication between us is terminated.
Why Full Tilt Closed our Accounts
Since Full Tilt will not communicate with us anymore, we are left with what Full Tilt stated when they gave us their decision on closing our accounts. From their email, they stated, “[My wife and I] gain an unfair advantage over other players and go very much against Full Tilt’s Poker’s rule of fair play when…”
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the use of two accounts, either alone or by a team of players
In other words, our use of two accounts was against their rules regardless of whether we played as we told them we did or whether they were played alone
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and then playing on these accounts at the same table immediately following one another,
Did this ever happen? Were there times where one of us finished a session and the other one started their session and ended up on a table the one was previously on? Yes. We admit and acknowledge this sometimes happened.
Did this ever happen? Did we ever have sessions where the second of us joined a table that the first was previously on and left a winner (say to 200-300bb on a table)? Yes. It probably goes without saying that if the second of us ended up on a table the first was previously on, there were also going to be times where the second of us ended up on the table with fewer chips.
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and sharing collected hand histories
Did this ever happen? We admit that we did watch each other while we played. We also admit we reviewed hands each other had played following the conclusion our sessions. So if that is what they mean, then I guess we did.
What are our screen names, anyhow?
My wife and I have talked about this at some length. We’ve also talked with several other players, and we’ve changed our minds about releasing our screen names. First, Full Tilt’s decision is final. We see zero chance that Full Tilt will change its mind about its decision or even in engaging in any further conversation. Second, we’ve already admitted any allegations by Full Tilt that could be proved or disproved by releasing our screen names. Releasing our screen names does nothing to prove or disprove any of Full Tilt’s allegations that we have not already admitted or acknowledged. All it does is satisfy the curiosity of some 2p2 members.
In our view, a lot of people here have acted like a lynch mob. Some posters actually PM’d us afterwards and apologized for acting in the way that they did. We appreciate those who could see that this thread really turned into a lynching. But for those who cannot see the lynching here, we’d rather not continue it further.
We have discussed the possibly of privately release our names to one or more posters. We’d have to see some positive in doing that. Right now, we cannot see what the point would be in even doing that when we’ve already admitted anything that could be determined by our screen names. But, if there was a possible benefit, we may be willing to do this.
The following are examples of baseless accusations we have had to deal with in this thread. One poster attacks us and says we are not truthful because we didn’t access our email account within a short time of receiving Full Tilt’s email. Another suggests my wife cannot be a good mother and play 13,000 hands of poker per month. Some people suggest we can’t be telling the truth because very few women play poker well. One poster suggested that we probably don’t even have kids. Another attacks us by suggesting we did not actually have 100k+ in our accounts because two five digit numbers do not necessarily add up to a six digit number. Others think there is something wrong with us because we have one computer in our home. (On this, we’ve tried to explain to people that we try to keep the number of electronic gadgets in our home to a minimum. We feel the more electronic gadgets we have, the less time we will spend together as a family. So, it might also surprise people to find that we also only have one T.V., and for the longest time the TV was only connected to the DVD player. Again, we feel that that having more electronic things in our home just causes each of to spend time alone instead of with the family). Overall, it just seems that some people have trouble comprehending a family situation that is different to what they would personally have.
Anyhow, we have made the decision to not open ourselves up to more baseless accusations. The week our bankroll was suspended was one of the most stressful times our family has had. Our family has now moved on, and we do not intend to reopen our personal lives back up, and to engage in countless hours of responding to what we feel are baseless accusations. Our family has had enough stress. As a result, after this post, I also do not intend to post a lot more in this thread.
Is Full Tilt’s Punishment Commensurate?
We strongly feel Full Tilt’s punishment was not commensurate with how Full Tilt treats its red pros. Full Tilt claims they are harder on their red pros. According to FTPSean:
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In fact, we often have to be tougher on our Red Pros than our players because not only do they represent our site, they are looked up to by players as role models... we have to hold our Red Pros to a higher standard.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...l#post15464493
Following Full Tilt’s decision to close our accounts, I sent a PM to FTPSean (along with an email to FTP) asking him about the points and medals. I also asked FTPSean why Full Tilt treats us far more harshly than they did Full Tilt’s red. FTPSean responded and said that the reason Full Tilt is more lenient on their red pros is because when their red pros like Brian Townsend break the T&C they have less malice than me and my wife. We took from this that FTPSean was saying that when Brian Townsend multi accounted by creating an account in his assistant’s name, he had less malice. And, when Brian Townsend, Brian Hastings, and Cole South worked as a team, shared action in each other, and combined hand databases to come up with a team strategy to beat Isuldur1 out of $4 million dollars, none of them had any malice in their actions.
Following FTPSean’s reply about malice, I tried to assure him that we didn’t have malice. I sent the following reply to him:
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I hope you understand that at the time of the actions we did not have malice. We have since realized that our actions, even without malice, could cause imbalances and were not completely fair. We have committed ourselves to never repeating what we did.
Please know that we have now learned why it was inappropriate to have close log in times and to play on a table that the other had previously been on. We now understand that when one of us builds a stack on a table, logs off, and then the other logs in under their new screen name (and sometimes with a smaller stack), that is not completely fair. Please understand that we were not trying to do something unfair, but that we now see why it could have been.
Most of all, we have realized that it is better to both just play on individual sites. That way, we avoid all the potential problems that can happen with two accounts.
I hope you can see some contrition on our part.
His response to that was,
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The issue lies solely with the security department now I'm afraid. Whatever decision they reach will be final.
Unfortunately, when a decision is left to Full Tilt Security, the result is often unfair. This is especially true when it comes to treating their players in a comparable way as Full Tilt does its red pros.
Full Tilt’s Treatment of its Players is not Equal
Full Tilt unequal treatment of its players is especially true in comparison to its red pros with Full Tilt’s rank and file members. Full Tilt gives their red pros (and some higher-up players) special treatment in at least two ways:
First, Full Tilt (and those partnered with them) have shown a consistent pattern of turning a blind eye to their red pros that break their T&C. It is only when other players bring the violations out into the public eye that Full Tilt actually does anything.
And second, even when red pros’ actions are publicly exposed by others, the punishment Full Tilt delivers is far less severe than what they do to others.
When it was revealed by others that Brian Townsend was multiaccounting, Full Tilt merely slapped him on the wrist. Months later, according to an ESPN interview, Brian Hastings said that he, Brian Townsend, and Cole South teamed up and combined databases to beat Isuldur1 out of $4 million dollars. As a result of these alleged T&C violations, Full Tilt decided to give Brian Hastings and Cole South a free pass (based on Full Tilt's decision that the ESPN article was inaccurate), and for Brian Townsend (who actually admitted to data mining), Full Tilt decided to give him another slap on the wrists.
If Full Tilt is serious about being commensurate in their punishments, then they should treat their rank and file members the same way as their red pros. Don’t permanently ban two people, but then allow red pros to continue on barely unnoticed.
Full Tilt also implied to us that it may be against the rules to discuss a hand with anyone while the hand is in progress (even with a sweater not in the hand). We tried to get Full Tilt security to clarify this, but they refused to respond. If it is a rule, then there are countless instances where Full Tilt knows this has happened with their red pros. There are even training videos available to the public to prove it.
A large number of red pros have violated the T&C, yet those higher up in power just turn a blind eye to this. Several (if not most) red pros at CardRunners have multiaccounted. Many high stake regs have multiaccounted. Stoxtrader has recently been exposed by other players as having multiaccounted and possibly colluded. The full Stoxtrader thread is found here:
StoxTrader Thread
One interesting thing we found in the Stoxtrader thread were the numerous posts (some from well-established players) that revealed that countless T&C violations have been ongoing for years, yet the powers-that-be have in the past just looked the other way. The following quotes are from that thread:
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we've seen a lot of nasty nasty things from these guys [Cardrunners]:
1) stoxtrader cheating (multiaccounting)
2) stoxtrader lying by omission by not mentioning that he was a ****ing shortstacker, oh i also forgot about the whole kinetica thing that's REAL dirty
3) jason ho huge scams (how the hell could that happen? he took 6 figs off people yet obviously sucked at poker, clearly there was a big lack of quality control)
4) brian townsend, one of the principals/stars of the company, cheating
5) stoxtrader also datamining (sortakinda cheating)
6) possible collusion against isildur
and there have got to be more things that i haven't thought of as well, if that much has come out how much **** went down that no one ever found out about?
it's clear that these guys have some serious ethical issues. what, am i supposed to believe that people that do business with those guys, people that own businesses with these guys are totally clean too? it's possible but it's certainly not the most likely possibility.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=198
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Three or four years ago it was entirely common for players to re-roll accounts to sign up for new rakeback deals, to regain their privacy, or even to outright refresh their anonymity. It was completely public information that many well-known nosebleed players (PA, David Benyamine, Lars Luzak) ran multiple accounts or migrated to new accounts and the poker community never so much as batted an eye. When I played nosebleed HU LHE it wasn’t uncommon for opponents to appear under new screen-names and it was something I never particularly took issue with; at the time I just felt it was a part of the game and something to deal with.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=301
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Nick's first response looks a bit goofy, but it's worth remember that he played poker for years when no one cared about this, and even back in the Party days where it was utterly commonplace for people to re-roll accounts.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=312
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While what Brian did was dishonest, and while one might someone who so strongly represents CR (and to a lesser extend FT) to a higher standard, I'm surprised at the sort of attention this is getting. There are quite a number of high stakes pros who are known to have played under multiple aliases, which is often discussed publicly, and I can't ever recall any of them ever being chewed up as "cheaters". It's an unfair advantage, to be sure, but Brian is certainly receiving unfair treatment from the community.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=314
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There were many other things said on various other people affiliated with Nick Grudzien, many people who have very high profiles in this industry… If the things that I was told are even remotely true, this business is more disguisting than I could ever imagine. We are then talking about multimillionaires exploiting tiny edges and ripping people off for what is basically inconsequential money to them. I am thoroughly disguisted today.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=643
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One by one they get exposed as cheaters and you seem to conveniently forget. "No HSNL would ever cheat. Oh wait... ok none but Brian Townsend... and FWF... and stox... and boosted... and prahlad... ok but SOME OF US still wouldn't steal or cheat for any amount of money."
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=716
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You have Brian suspended twice from his RedPro status,and AceCR stated that CR employees aided him in setting up multiple accounts. AceCR relates a story from the CR Christmas party where Taylor says he ought to cheat because everyone else is doing it. Add in this situation with Stox, Bryce admitting to another account, and you have a pattern of abuse by both companies.
People who are saying "forget that, focus on this" are missing the point IMO. Everything that comes to light helps to support the idea that this company is populated by people who care nothing for rule and have no ethics- so anything that adds to the case against them helps.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=855
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PA, Benyamine, Bryce, and a host of others have done this [multi accounting] in the past. No one seems to care that Guy lost millions on many accounts. If you are a losing player, apparently you can play all the accounts you want.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=866
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At that time, online poker multi-accounting was very common and many of the high stakes players did it. The sites didn't enforce these rules as well. I don't remember the details or context of the conversation, and I regret ever suggesting someone should multi-account.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1142
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I don't see how Taylor's response is at all good or satisfying to the community. Over the past few years he has learned that major people from his company have been taking part in cheating and each time has not outed this information. Instead he has allowed 2p2ers to get cheated out of additional money and not acted until someone else has come forward outing the multi accounting.
Of course it makes sense for taylor to act in his best interests and keep the cheating to himself but it seems ridiculous for him to then make that post once he is forced to and people act as if he is being righteous. Cardrunners has had no problem looking past cheating in the past and I am not at all confident in how taylor will decide to police it in the future.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1676
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Wow, you [CardRunners] won't promote pros who cheat your customers out of money(anymore), and you'll expect them to adhere to the same set of T&C everyone else does!
Meanwhile people still listed on their guest pro list have admitted to MA'ing in the past(in the msnl FTP regs thread last week).
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1688
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Taylor knew about all of this and did nothing and yet you will still entertain a business relation with him. CR could not police this before-do you really thing they can now. Will they out people for cheating if they find it? NO is the answer.
They have a terrible track record.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1695
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Few questions for taylor if he returns to this thread.
What will you do to players who work for your company who come forward and admit to having multi accounted in the coming weeks? Along with this what other then money has motivated you to change your stance on outing employees who have cheated when it has seemed to be a long standing policy of yours to say nothing.
When you were notified that employees of yours were cheating why did you decide to keep it to yourself rather then out these players?
Why is it that Brian Townsend has cheated multiple times but he is still a lead pro with your site?
Do you feel that the "about us" section of your site where you have player profiles is accurate at the current time for pros that teach on your site?
What is cardrunners stance on the fact that people who pay a monthly fee to your site have been misinformed and had money stolen from them by the unethical actions of your employees?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1700
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amazed people can be praising someone who has repeatedly known about people blatantly cheating and stealing from the poker community and both not said a thing (as it is in his best interest), and also actively covered it up
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1728
Perhaps this poster’s remarks sums it up best:
And Frank Fahrenkopf, CEO of American Gaming Association, said the following:
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I don’t think most of the operators — maybe some, I don’t know — could care less about whether or not it’s legal in the jurisdiction of the bettor, and could care less on whether or not the person is betting is actually the person they say they are
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...ng-association
Full Tilt Avoids a Sticky Issue
You’d think with all this multi accounting, especially with red pros, Full Tilt would do something. Full Tilt is ready to pounce on their rank and file members when they feel they need to, but turn a blind eye to their red pros. Here’s what happened to us: for three years, my wife and I had been playing on Full Tilt. I believe they had already looked into our accounts as we had both done multiple cash outs. At the time, Full Tilt for some reason had no problems with our accounts.
Then, recently I out Full Tilt for having a security leak with their player’s emails:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-lists-732365/
As a result of me calling Full Tilt out, FTPSean privately requests my screen name and says he’ll keep it confidential. I give it to him. Within hours of getting it, Full Tilt permanently closes both my and my wife’s accounts.
It is interesting to note that Full Tilt has yet to disclose how their players’ private email accounts were leaked. People have said that it is just my affiliate. I guarantee that is not the case. Other posters said they got the same email and knew it did not come from their affiliate. Lee Jones said they have discontinued relationship with the rogue affiliate that offered the cake rakeback. My affiliate is one of the biggest around and continues to offer cake rakeback—so it could not have been them. Also, my email has been changed several times at Full Tilt, so my affiliate should not even know our private email with Full Tilt. And, the spam email was sent to several other posters. We did not all have the same affiliate.
Regardless, Sean said the email leak issue would be resolved after Full Tilt dealt with our accounts. I believe Full Tilt has just tried to sweep the email issue under the rug by going after me and my wife personally. Well, our accounts have been dealt with (they are permanently closed), and yet Full Tilt has yet to explain how emails were leaked out. Perhaps the closing of our accounts is what Full Tilt meant when it said the email issue would be dealt with. Something very strange is going on at Full Tilt.
Conclusion
In conclusion, we'd like to share our basic thoughts and feelings on all of this. This has been a very hard on our family. It has been very stressful. We have learned some hard lessons from all of this. My wife and I are moving on. When you’ve got a family, it really is all you can do. We thought this would never happen to us, but it has. We hope that this never happens to any of you.
j/k obv
