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Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets

10-31-2014 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czar Chasm
Jesus, at least when Rationale bent us over they used lube...
Solid analogy right there.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostOstrich
most common response?
LOL.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czar Chasm
Jesus, at least when Rationale bent us over they used lube...

Feel terrible for everyone who depended on Stars for a living. Where is there even to go? Party practically started the war on regs with their segregation and cashout fees. 888 still continues to steal 10% a month from dormant accounts as well as a zillion other shady practices. Ipoker doesn't care who rapes their customers with bots as long as everyone keeps paying rake. Security is an absolute joke across the board with the exception of Stars. It's really a ****ty situation for all, they have everyone by the balls and they know it.
None of them want your business and the writing has been on the wall for quite sometime now. Online poker is not a recognised profession and rakeback whores are dying slowly but surely.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 04:09 PM
Expect this sort of explanation from Stars..

Hello:

Thank you for contacting PokerStars.

In recent weeks, PokerStars has made several changes which have upset some players. We are grateful for the passion that you have for the PokerStars brand, and also for giving us the benefit of your point of view. We hear your feedback and appreciate that you do not like higher costs.

However, our growth initiatives require significant investments in areas of marketing, promotions and product innovation. Most of that funding has to come from the income we derive from providing the best online poker platform in the world. Our goal is to grow the poker community, and we have a number of initiatives around making the game more attractive to recreational players, supporting the introduction of more locally regulated online poker licensing regimes, and innovating with new products.

Finally, while we realize that the rake increases are not welcome news, in every game type in which rake was increased, our prices remain competitive with other major online poker sites.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Regards,

PokerStars Support Team
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 04:18 PM
It's so funny that their rake is like other sites now, while their network still is full with way better players than any other site.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 04:19 PM
its pretty simple really, if there were a shop where my fav ice cream was the lowest price around and i been there for years. all of a sudden they raise the price, im not gonna go into the shop and cry about it, id find a new ice cream, shop some where else or just pay the new price, no amount of sooking is going to change nothing, they made their decision, they would of expected backlash, put up with it, move on, or perhaps get a business loan and become a competitor...
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotje
None of them want your business and the writing has been on the wall for quite sometime now. Online poker is not a recognised profession and rakeback whores are dying slowly but surely.
Everybody wants regs business because they contribute most to the rake - simple.

However as with EVERY industry in the modern world, regulation drives up costs & this is ALWAYS passed to the consumer that regulation is supposed to protect.

If an industry is successful every government wants their cut through taxation.

Whilst these changes are certainly not good, without developing the product, marketing it & attracting new money to the pool, poker will die.

The only way they can possibly maintain/reduce the rake on an ongoing basis is by significantly increasing the player pool - which surely means the US, which inevitably means up front cost.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x
So what players are uneffected by this then?


It seems like only MTT players and mtt-sng thus 180 man and 18 and 45 man players and fifty/50 players are the only ones unaffected by this?
and then there was the raked rebuys...
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 04:56 PM
PokerStars main driver for profit is the number of games being played.

For a rake increase of 20% game volume would have to decline by more than 17% for the rake increase to be -ev for the site.

IMO this is very unlikely happen particularly as there are no real alternatives for us.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solncev
Off course they do.They just made one of the best decisions that will help 'em to get rid of non depositing regs who only syphoning money from PS.Recs ain't gonna go anywhere,they don't care about rake,they rarely care about bonuses because average rec doesn't play enough to earn them.Only depositing players matters in a long run.Pro grinders paying lots and lots of rake and this is true,but they although never deposit any money,they only withdraw,so ask yourselfs one simple question where all this money you're "paying in rake" are coming from? They're coming from regular hard working men who deposit $50 to play on saturday night for fun and dont give a flying f***k if they going to lose or win and they'll keep depositing over and over again. Pro poker players and especially RB grinders are the biggest head ache for any online poker room,and should be treated as such.
As with a few people you've misunderstood how the system works I think. All money deposited is held in an account which the company cannot touch. Gaming licenses depend on poker rooms holding all this money that's floating around between player accounts, within a single segregated place so that if every player emptied their accounts 10 seconds from now it would all be paid out directly from this place. Therefore the money that flows in and out of this segregated account has absolutely no link to the companies profits at all. Their profits are rake, and only rake. Deposits are not their money to access.

If someone very knowledgeable about such matters insists I'm wrong perhaps I am, but I'm quite sure this is the case. If my memory is correct then FullTilts owners allegedly dipping into this segregated money was the reason they were shut down.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Viper
As with a few people you've misunderstood how the system works I think. All money deposited is held in an account which the company cannot touch. Gaming licenses depend on poker rooms holding all this money that's floating around between player accounts, within a single segregated place so that if every player emptied their accounts 10 seconds from now it would all be paid out directly from this place. Therefore the money that flows in and out of this segregated account has absolutely no link to the companies profits at all. Their profits are rake, and only rake. Deposits are not their money to access.

If someone very knowledgeable about such matters insists I'm wrong perhaps I am, but I'm quite sure this is the case. If my memory is correct then FullTilts owners allegedly dipping into this segregated money was the reason they were shut down.
If my memory is correct, Full Tilt never actually segregated the money in the first place as it wasn't a requirement of their gaming license. Their french site (or italian?) was supposed to be segregated as per that license, but they didn't do that either.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aXXit
after killing 20 seconds of my life reading this post i'm pretty sure the one who is addicted to drugs must be you.
I could never agree more
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:24 PM
YES EVERYONE GETS THIS RESPONSE ITS AUTOMATED! ****ing scums bags.
Keep emailing them demand a human respond, annoy them, abuse them, frustrate them.

Hello:

Thank you for contacting PokerStars.

In recent weeks, PokerStars has made several changes which have upset some players. We are grateful for the passion that you have for the PokerStars brand, and also for giving us the benefit of your point of view. We hear your feedback and appreciate that you do not like higher costs.

However, our growth initiatives require significant investments in areas of marketing, promotions and product innovation. Most of that funding has to come from the income we derive from providing the best online poker platform in the world. Our goal is to grow the poker community, and we have a number of initiatives around making the game more attractive to recreational players, supporting the introduction of more locally regulated online poker licensing regimes, and innovating with new products.

Finally, while we realize that the rake increases are not welcome news, in every game type in which rake was increased, our prices remain competitive with other major online poker sites.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Regards,

PokerStars Support Team
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:29 PM
Dear Amaya Owners and Amaya CEOs,

please take back your recent changes. Your profits are healthy and fine yet! But they will not be, if you continue your recent profit maximizing policy.

We the PokerPlayer like poker, because we belive, there is a chance of making a decent profit now or in the future... if that belive is gone we have no reason to play...

You stealing the small profits or the hope for profits of thouhsands of players just to make a very small bunch of people more weahlty then they already are... - you dont need to belive in karma to come to the conclusion that this is a very very bad idea!

You giving your cash-cow some anabolica to drink to produce more milk. You think you know it all because you took some semesters in harvard and milked some other cash-cows. MORONS - YOU ARE KILLING THIS ****ING COW!!!
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayus
I would also like to start my post with saying that I'm not happy about any of the negative changes going on and my post may seem controversial/offensive, but:

It baffles me that so many of you think a multi-billion$ company has no idea what it is doing. They have the top experts in the world and the biggest data possible, believe me, they know what they are doing.

Also I would like to second what @AvoidMe? said, some of the changes are regarding formats that are being heavily exploited in an unsportsmanlike fashion.

Considering the thread is full of 80% whining one-liners I would assume you guys have the same attitude towards your poker career as well. You bought some softwares, learnt a bit of math and expect to make easy bucks all day everyday. gl with that. I just don't get it how most of you see everything black and white. One might think that as poker players you've developed qualities that are designed to help you in situations just like this one, poker wise and life wise.

A poker player's strongest quality should be to be able to adjust/adapt and read the situation. You guys can cry all you want, the changes are happening whether you like it or not. The best thing you can do is to evaluate the situation and do the best possible deicsion for you. For some it might be withdrawing all their money, for others it might be playing new formats, whatever.

The biggest problem I see here is where Pokerstars(Amaya) draws the line. Considering the fact they already announced that VIP system is going to take a big hit in 2016, all we can do is hope that they won't have to make more adjustments(aka bad changes for regs) in order to meet their profit goals etc.

Also please note that it's not entierly Amaya's fault, they bought the company right when all the regulations started happening and things just cant be the same as they were pre-regulations. I play on pokerstars.bg which I believe is the newest ps.xx site and I know how greedy the government wanted to be at first.


tl;dr things are happening whether you like it or not, adapt the best way possible for you and take the situation as a true poker player!

p.p. After I've finished this post I realize i sound a bit like I'm on the enemy side, believe me I want to win money from online poker for as long as possible just like you, but you guys need to step up your game imho.
+1
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28renton
If my memory is correct, Full Tilt never actually segregated the money in the first place as it wasn't a requirement of their gaming license. Their french site (or italian?) was supposed to be segregated as per that license, but they didn't do that either.
But the current Poker Room Manager of Full Tilt who worked for the old FT and posted as FTPDoug said they did.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTime1Time
I understand how rake back works. I'm understanding what you are saying, and my initial thought process on this was slightly off. Or at the very least, my wording is slightly off.

I think we could look at it this way - If there was no SNE program, and nothing else changed, it would be 46m$ more in the bank accounts of Amaya. I'm not saying that Amaya is paying this money out of pocket - I understand where the money is coming from.

I'm just looking at it from a business point, and I'm not seeing where a Board of Directors is going to justify giving away this kind of money for very little perceived gain. This is what bean counters see. They see all this rake money going back out the door, and they are going to come up with ways to keep it in the company. Raking everyone more would be the first solution I'd come to as well. The by-product of making games "impossible" to beat is not their concern.

It would be interesting to know how many SNE players turn actual profit vs how many are slightly winning/slightly losing. It's fully possible to be a slightly losing player, yet still make upwards of 80K a year from "rake back".

An interesting question to ask - if they reduced rake, how many people would be crying about how much more volume they have to put in?



The purpose of these games isn't so people can grind out an hourly rate to support themselves. It's to funnel players into tournaments that they can't normally afford. Poker sites aren't here to employ you, they are here to take your money for entertainment.

A key thing to always remember - the purpose of an online poker company is to make money, not give it away. They do not owe you anything. They do not employ you to play on their site.
You think they gain very little from having a VIP programme. Has it not crossed your tiny mind that players will put in hundreds of hours more playing time to reach supernova and supernova elite and all those thousands more games played = thousands more dollars in rake and thus bigger profits for the company? Seriously, the guys who used to run Pokerstars and decided to implement and keep this VIP programme knew how to build a billion dollar company better than you do, so clearly they knew it was generating enough action to turn bigger profits for them.

"The by-product of making games impossible to beat is not their concern". That wins the award I think. The most ******ed statement made in this entire thread thus far. Come up to the stage and collect your award sir.

As for how many SNE players actually turn a profit, their profit depends on how many tables they have running at once. Someone who is a very skilled poker player playing one table will make much better decisions than someone flicking between 20 tables. But they find the number of tables that generates the most $ profit per hour for them.

The way it works is, money flows around player accounts, round and round. The more of it there is and the faster its flowing, the more profits Pokerstars can skim off in rake. Good players don't skim off money by rake, they skim it off by their skill giving them small mathematical edge.
Lets say the most skilled 50% of players suddenly vanishes from online poker tomorrow. What happens now? Well the remaining 50% of players will now slowly divide into the most skilled 50% of them and the least skilled 50%....and the same cycle keeps on spinning. The only difference is that there is half as many players now which means much less rake being generated for Pokerstars to profit from.
It has nothing to do with anyone owing anyone employment. Its a system where the company profits rise based on how many players are playing and how much money is flowing between them. If half the player are turning a profit because theyre skilled, this drives them to play thousands of games each year, thus driving the money to keep flowing at a fast rate...thus increasing a key factor which determines that Pokerstars turn a healthy profit.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Viper
As with a few people you've misunderstood how the system works I think. All money deposited is held in an account which the company cannot touch. Gaming licenses depend on poker rooms holding all this money that's floating around between player accounts, within a single segregated place so that if every player emptied their accounts 10 seconds from now it would all be paid out directly from this place. Therefore the money that flows in and out of this segregated account has absolutely no link to the companies profits at all. Their profits are rake, and only rake. Deposits are not their money to access.

If someone very knowledgeable about such matters insists I'm wrong perhaps I am, but I'm quite sure this is the case. If my memory is correct then FullTilts owners allegedly dipping into this segregated money was the reason they were shut down.
Rake comes from deposits,as soon as pot has been raked this money become PS profit and can be moved from segregated accounts to PS operational accounts.IF there's not enough deposits to cover the rake taken and withdrawals the company will go bankrupt.It's that simple. Honest companies will close their business before it to late and pay out everyone their balances,others.... well,have a look at lock poker
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7deuc3
its pretty simple really, if there were a shop where my fav ice cream was the lowest price around and i been there for years. all of a sudden they raise the price, im not gonna go into the shop and cry about it, id find a new ice cream, shop some where else or just pay the new price, no amount of sooking is going to change nothing, they made their decision, they would of expected backlash, put up with it, move on, or perhaps get a business loan and become a competitor...
You sir are either a Shill or an idiot please take your pick. Why are you here are you not part of the poker community?
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Viper
As with a few people you've misunderstood how the system works I think. All money deposited is held in an account which the company cannot touch. Gaming licenses depend on poker rooms holding all this money that's floating around between player accounts, within a single segregated place so that if every player emptied their accounts 10 seconds from now it would all be paid out directly from this place. Therefore the money that flows in and out of this segregated account has absolutely no link to the companies profits at all. Their profits are rake, and only rake. Deposits are not their money to access.

If someone very knowledgeable about such matters insists I'm wrong perhaps I am, but I'm quite sure this is the case. If my memory is correct then FullTilts owners allegedly dipping into this segregated money was the reason they were shut down.
Games are built around fish. The idea from the sites pov is that the games wont run without fish, and that therefore that the site is competing indirectly with the regs for the fishes money. If stars can ensure that thry get a higher portion of the mugs money they win. They can do this by increasing rake, increasing variance or decreasing pros. The pros essentially dont contribute rake from that perspective.

Sites have to work hard to find and attract the fish, and doing that can be expensive for them. If you assume that this will not discourage fish, and that regs dont play regs, then it seems like a clear win for them to increase rake.

I think the initial guys point as pretty accurate although pergaps badly pgrased.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oly0812
Im sorry but i canīt keep up with the idea that "REGs" are killing the game. If all the "REGs" were to disappear, then some fish would become the new "REGS" and they would stop depositing.
Also a "REG" is always playing, making the house win a lot more, while a fish can just win and stop for months. They do free advertising, they promote the game if they are any good at it just by being WINNERS. A house needs winners just so everyone think they can have a shot at it... mess with the regs, make them unhappy and turn them into losers and poker will die.
you have a drastically distorted reg to fish ratio due to mass multitabling, software etc. that is terrible for the long term health of the game. there will always be winners and losers but when you suck the fun out of the game fish stop depositing.

the games getting destroyed was obvious and inevitable years ago- they are thoroughly unsustainable. even before this rake increase people have complained about rake for years, even though rake was actually less on a her hand basis than it was before the stars vip program was introduced. the issue wasnt the lower rake (after rb/rewards) being too high-the issue was an unhealthy poker ecosystem.

while i can't blame anyone for doing what is best for themselves individually,regs through their own collective greed have greatly contributed to killing them games.stars may be doing the same thing with this rake increase but the hypocrisy of those calling stars greedy pigs,short sighted etc is comical.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 05:57 PM
Wrt filing a complaint because of monopoly abuse. Assuming stars could be considered a monopoly (which I'm skeptical about, but not enough informed to judge properly), what exactly is it that you would be arguing? "Stars used to be cheapest but now they raised their prices on par with the other websites"? How would that ever be illegal?
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stusmiley
YES EVERYONE GETS THIS RESPONSE ITS AUTOMATED! ****ing scums bags.
Keep emailing them demand a human respond, annoy them, abuse them, frustrate them.

Hello:

Thank you for contacting PokerStars.

In recent weeks, PokerStars has made several changes which have upset some players. We are grateful for the passion that you have for the PokerStars brand, and also for giving us the benefit of your point of view. We hear your feedback and appreciate that you do not like higher costs.

However, our growth initiatives require significant investments in areas of marketing, promotions and product innovation. Most of that funding has to come from the income we derive from providing the best online poker platform in the world. Our goal is to grow the poker community, and we have a number of initiatives around making the game more attractive to recreational players, supporting the introduction of more locally regulated online poker licensing regimes, and innovating with new products.

Finally, while we realize that the rake increases are not welcome news, in every game type in which rake was increased, our prices remain competitive with other major online poker sites.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Regards,

PokerStars Support Team
well wtf kind of response did you expect?
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 06:08 PM
It's very simple.

Pokerstars offers people SNE with good rakeback, if they play enough games. These ensures that there are always games running. As for the difficulty of games, 16+ multi-tabling SNEs are way weaker than basically weaker players who might have only 1-4 tables open.

If PS didn't want players to 24-64 table, they would set a cap at 12 or 16 since they know that not playing in botmode is kinda impossible at some level.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-31-2014 , 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28renton
If my memory is correct, Full Tilt never actually segregated the money in the first place as it wasn't a requirement of their gaming license. Their french site (or italian?) was supposed to be segregated as per that license, but they didn't do that either.
Thanks for the clarification. The underlying point is correct then. They will be shutdown if they fail to follow the correct procedure in segregating player funds from company funds.
Which means for people saying players who withdraw and never deposit are damaging company profits. No, they aren't. It has no bearing on how much profit the company makes each year at all, because all the money being deposited, is not the company money. Nor is the money being withdrawn. They can't lawfully touch any of it.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote

      
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