I think you're missing the point of a jackpot drop.

I don't think so. I think we just disagree on its use for starting new type games. I think it should attract more people, or entice people already playing to play longer, in the games that are already paying for the jackpot drop in the first place. I don't view it as a pure marketing fund with no connection to those who contribute the money in the first place. For example I don't think JP funds should be used for radio spots or billboards bringing more people into the poker room. I don't think JP funds should be used to buy new chairs, even if those attract more players. I just happen to think that trying to establish new games where there has been little to no player interest is not a function of the JP drop.

But I see how you could feel it is. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. Just different from me.

how much do you guys think comp dollars are worth to X dollar?

friend is thinking of "selling" his comp dollars by buying me food and me giving him RL money.

think .5/1 comp dollar is fair rate?

Also,does anyone else think hard rock should let us run it twice if both players agree to pay the rake twice?
The plo game has been running as regular rake because of the high hands+ nit regs that usually start the game early and as a result I've really been getting my ass kicked by the variance train lately.

This i would like to see. The 1-300 game at pbkc is incredible. It would also help the growth of a more regular 5/10 game.

So what you should be looking for is not promos that pay you money back, but promos that increase your hourly earnings. If the promos get more recreational players in the seats at your tables and increase your average hourly win rate for the year by just $5/hr, you have made an extra $10K for the year - $4K more than what you paid in jp drop. That's how you should look at the jp promos, imo. If you also get some direct promo payback, think of it as a unexpected bonus, not something you expect or deserve.

I don't disagree. I just like other poker games a lot more than NLHE, so wouldn't mind seeing it encouraged. OTOH, diversity of games will attract a wider audience, and may benefit the NLHE games as well.

There is plenty of cross-over between tourney players and cash games. I think a good share of the ones who don't get a seat in a freeroll and those that bust out early will sit for cash game. And don't forget, the freerolls (as I laid them out) are for low-traffic times to get more players in the room. Plus, probably run, I think these freerolls will pay for themselves between the increased jp drop from more players at cash games and any re-entries going back into jp funds.

The players you want to attract aren't the regulars that have a positive win rate. What good would that do you?

That is good, if the players are recreational players, not nitty regs. I think there could be better promos designed to keep players staying longer than the gas cards. How about double high-hand payouts from midnight to 5am? Or free beers? Or late-night spin-the-wheel?

Yep, good high hand promos are a key to a mix of good promos to draw in players and keep them playing longer.


I do. Doesn't even have to be full rake twice. Could be $1 or $2 per player.

As it happens, I was thinking this week about a completely different rake structure for a poker room. Instead of percentage, make it $1 per community card for flop games, and $1 per up-card plus $1 extra dollar for stud games. Obv none of the big rooms will go for it, but it might be a good way for a smaller room to compete against them.

The $10/$20 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo game is on for THR today starting at 3pm. Six confirms so far, with lots more maybes, so it looks to go off for sure.

Been awhile since I posted but wanted to chime in on the promotions discussion. Wouldn't something "alcohol-oriented" be extremely popular AND in the best interest of making the games better? Perhaps do some kind of drink voucher promotion? I know Lucky's used to have some type of "kill the keg" promo with free drafts until the keg ran out.

One thing I've noticed in these promo discussions is that players are generally divided into two categoties, "regs" who are implied to be winners and to be avoided, and "rec players" who are deemed to be the source of "regs" winnings. From that flows the idea that promos for regs are to be avoided.

But my experience is that there are regs that are not very good, despite how much they play, and I am very happy to see them sit at the table. ( of course, I'm sure there are some regs happy to see me sit down too) . They may be businessmen, retirees, etc who just love to play, but dont put any effort into improving their game. So promos that encourage them to stay longer are a good thing IMO.

reg doesnt mean pro. So if, for example, a THR promo gets say a Derby reg who may not be good, to come over and play at THR, then that's a net positive.

This would be an awesome game for this room. Guaranteed.

I rarely play 5/10, but I'm confused as to how anyone would think a max buy in of 300 or 400 would draw people to a 5/10 game.

There was universal condemnation of the 1/2nl game with a $100 buy in cap, because it was so short stacked and you couldn't play "real" poker. And that was a 50 big blind cap. So who would want to play a 5/10 game with a 30 or 40 big blind buyin cap?

If someone could explain why those games would be popular, I'd appeciate it. I sort of have a block trying to see the plus side of it.

Thanks

The people who would consider playing 1/2NL at a 50bb cap (and complain about it not being 100bb+) are not the same people who would consider playing 5/10NL at a 30-40bb cap. This much should be obvious.

The people advocating for a cap game believe that there is a demographic that enjoys a lot of splashing around and getting all in all the time (that's just how cap games play), and that if they are introduced to 5/10NL in a relatively less threatening environment (lose 2-3 buyins at a 30-40bb cap = ~$1000, ok, w/e), they might therefore be enticed to join the regular 200bb 5/10NL games in the future.

You know what would never happen but would drive traffic up immediately and forever? Free drinks. All this extra jackpot money that's never going to be paid out with $100 gas cards should just be used to subsidize free alcohol (but only in the poker room). But, never going to happen. Shrug.

I thought the same thing until i actually played in one of these games. It attracts a lot of gamblers and makes for some really good action. Remember who you are looking to attract to the games. Those types of players probably wouldnt want to initially play in a game where people are sitting with 2k+ on average.

The problem with the 1/2 cap was more the rake and the fact that $100 is really an insignificant amount of money. After someone dumps 2-300 5 times into a 5/10, that does become significant. It will be relatively easy to get deep stacked in these games, and to do so would encourage action.

Players who play lower now might take shots in this game when they are running hot at a lower stake where they might be intimidated to sit at a game where other players can buy in for much more. After playing in a game that plays larger, these players will also want to play for more money in the future.

Also this type of game is good to attract the pit players to play. These guys would sit and potentially throw in $100+ blind. We rarely see these types of players in our games, and this structure is what might bring them into the poker room.

lilwhaldo/dumbluck: -thanks for explaining that. Definitely would be an unusual and different type game. But still probably as likely as free drinks.

Browser makes an excellent point in this post. There is no question that the gas card promos cause many players to play longer hours which translates into more hands played. Most players are not winning players or are marginally break even at best, as even those who are opposed to gas cards readily point out. So in effect the gas cards keep a lot of losing players playing for longer period of time. These players make many mistakes, the more hands they play the more these mistakes can be exploited. Same concept as if we were able to get THR to install six handed tables. This is a perfect scenario for winning players.

Gas cards also make a lot of sense from a business perspective for THR. They keep people playing longer and generating rake which is the lifeblood of the room. In other words the gas cards are a tool that make playing in the room "sticky" for many players.

On the other hand it's true that high hands do attract casual players to the room. These players however generally don't play above 1-2 NL and they don't really keep coming back, which should be the intent. It's also hit or miss as to when and if they are going to show up. I've personally not seen hordes of casual players showing up for high hands, especially to play 2/5 NL or higher looking to blow off hundreds or thousands of $s chasing high hands, just doesn't happen very often.

Admittedly when the BBJ did get really high there was no question that casual players showed up for that in droves and they made far more and worse mistakes than usual ("I have to call this pre flop 3 bet OOP with QJs because I might hit the BBJ", lol) which was good for everyone. The problem with the BBJ though is that once it was hit the money was distributed to a very narrow slice of players and that money then left and didn't come back to benefit the room as a whole.

This has been stated ad naseum but it seems as though some type of blended promo structure would be best for the room and the widest swath of players. Monthly gas cards, some high hands and some tournament tickets or credits would be a great mix. HHR was doing this for a while and it seemed to work well to the benefit of all.

go to Palm beach if you want that. I can't imagine the ratholing if that game even had the chance of running.....the 5/10 game when it runs, runs around whales who I can't name by name who want to buy in max and the game quit running 6 months ago because the whales were pissed at the minbuy, win a few hundo or double and snap bolt and usually whales don't want to play short handed which causes the game to break fast. In the past few weeks it's gone a few times with the game being decent. As with most higher limit games, the hardest part is getting the game started. There'll be 10 names on the list and only 3 show up and you get into this "I'll sit when the others sit".

Scott you gotta get with Tom and separate the Omaha and holdem promos. The edge they have winning the high hands even having to use 2 cards is still WAY bigger than hold em yet contributing less than 1/10th of the JP/promo fund. Some great changes have been made to the room, but there's still some things that seem black and white on the surface. in addition, I have to complain about a few dealers who are just awful. I understand you have a write up system that employees must accumulate points and x amount of points = write up/letter whatever and the list is long for eventual termination, but c'mon now, when a dealer sits and the table snap breaks or people plan their lunch breaks around the rotation, something has to give.

definitely separate omaha and texas high-hand/bad-beat promos. not even close to fair to have those grouped together.

I understand from a couple of dealers that the bad beat jackpot is going away completely in the near future. I also think the 5/10 NL short buy in would do well at The THR. Scott,would this be something that you would be willing to give a shot?

what is your theory for expecting this game to do well? Sure, it'll do well for the casino. Raise to 30, and they take 3.00 Say everyone buys in for 300, that makes 2700 total on the table. with a min rake of 3.00 per hand (2+1jp) and say 15 hands per down, that's 30 hands an hour and a min of 30x3 dollars a hand 90.00 an hour getting smoked off the table. with the high end being 180.00 an hour 5+1 (more for faster dealers) which doesn't even include tokes to dealers. The rake box is going to eat a ton of the money.

I think a reduced min/max buy-in 5/10 is a horrible idea. Why would you want a 5/10 game with a lower max buy-in than the 2/5 game (even a lower max than the old 2/5 max)? Doesn't make any sense at all. If the short buy-in 5/10 game runs a lot, it is just going to take a lot of the gambling players away from 2/5.

I don't play at the Tampa HR that often, but it would give me another reason to head to Daytona instead. Daytona is closer, but I prefer the higher max 2/5 buy-in at Tampa HR.

Good points raised on the short buy in 5/10NL game. The key is do players hit and run or stay for a while on average as the average stack size increases. According to several players i have spoken with who have played at West Palm,the majority of players tend to stay.Yes some players will come from 2/5,some players will come from PLO and it may bring in a few more gamblers from the casino.It could also serve as a feeder to a larger 5/10 NL game as more players get comfortable playing higher blinds.

Apologies if this has been answered before, but what is the typical payout structure for the $110 MTT? There's a good chance I'll be playing next Saturday.

I agree with this - I understand they want to attract more people on the weekdays but the gas promo is not attracting the "pros" (who play 40 plus hours a week anyway) and the rec players are more likely to be there on the weekends and nights (like myself). So who exactly are the promos that run on the accumulation of weekday hours attracting?

I think the solution is weekend promos that get more rec players in the room (those who would otherwise go to Derby, etc.) and evening promos as well that would attract people in to the room after hours. Ideally the promos should involve immediate satisfaction - meaning something guaranteed each day - which is why things like high hands and grab bags and the wheel (that they had) seem to be the best alternatives for attracting rec players (despite some of the protests to the contrary) coupled with something to reward the regulars (like a weekly hourly return rate).

My personal opinion is that a permanent "spin the wheel" with spins at some set interval (for example the highest hand every four hours) with one slot out of thirty being one fantastic prize would be a great way to get more players in the room. It adds the element of gambling which is type of people poker players like.

Agree with all this. The promos are still terrible.

Single table tournaments: Back in the day the single tables were the only real action and they went often. I think the problem is bringing together interested people at the same time. A possible solution is to allow people to sign up for tournaments (single etc) on line and pay in advance (no refund I guess). So that you could schedule a single table and play when you arrived. Just a thought.

Excellent points, but I think there is value to also trying to attract more recreational daytime and overnight players. It can be done successfully.

I like your four-hour spin-the-wheel opportunity idea, but basing it on high hand has a couple drawbacks. First, there may be plenty of instances where high hand winner doesn't stick around that long regardless, leaving no prize claimed for the period (and therefore no excitement in the room). And if a highly unbeatable high hand is hit early, there is less incentive for players to continue to play for the four hours.

Instead, why not use the bravo system. Give each player cumulative, increasing entries to win a prize drawing for each full half hour that they play during the four-hour period:

One entry for the first half hour of play.
Two more entries for the second half hour of play.
Three more entries for the third half of play.
and so on, all the way up to eight additional entries for the last half hour of play if the person plays non-stop for all of the four-hour period.
(Maximum 36 entries per player for four straight hours of play.)

Then do a drawing for spin-the-wheel like the drawings on the main casino floor - keep drawing a name from all the entries until there is a winner in the room (must be currently playing per bravo to win). And no lame prizes on the wheel - should be $500 cash at a minimum, and one really big prize like you suggest. In fact, they could make a really nice display in the room of the prizes like large LED TV, laptop computer, latest ipad, home theater system, xbox one, player outfit (headphones, music player, hoody and sunglasses), fancy piece of gold jewelry, rolex, collectible guitar, fine art, et al; and whatever the big prize is (new car?).

Run the four-hour period every evening for a month, from 5pm to 9pm, with the drawing for spin-the-wheel starting at 9pm. Accumulate all the entries over the one-month period, i.e. all entries stay in for every drawing. and wait to put the big prize (and maybe some of the other best prizes) on the wheel until the last week of the month.

That ought to get a lot of players sitting in at the tables. Rewards loyalty, too, for the grinders.

Played last night and there was a sign on the brush stand that said "attention players. Effective feb 1, the royal flush bonuses will be discontinued and replaced by high hands. "

Somehow it just doesnt seem like we are getting as much as we should be in promo payouts considering how much they are saving by not feeding the bad beat for months