When I get there Monday, Ill add myself to a list if its there. Ill be there for a week.

according to Bravo Poker Live, Borgata has more games going than anywhere else within driving distance, does anyone know, how often the Bravo 'Current Waiting List' is updated?
see http://www.bravopokerlive.com

BBJP: QUAD 10+: $258,877
QUAD 2 - 9: $50,000 http://www.theborgata.com/play/borga...opupHeight=210

Live Game Report: http://www.theborgata.com/play/borga...opupHeight=700

I understand it is quixotic to cover literally every situation, but it isn't unrealistic to cover all the clear-cut cases, and have all the dealers, floors, and shift managers on the same page. And yes, if the rule is clearly spelled out in the rulebook, the ruling should be in exact accordance with what is (clearly) stated in the rulebook. Only in extreme cases, which call for the discretion of the shift manager, should a judgement call be made. In other words, if situation A is described in detail in the book, and the same situation A arises, the shift should not be tempted to rule contrary to what is prescribed in the rulebook, despite all the seemingly logical reasons he can invent. At a later time, an inquiry can be made to determine why the rule is in place, and petitions to alter it can be made. But until it's official, stick to what the book says.

The vast number of inaccurate rulings lie in ignorance and/or boneheadedness in extremely clear-cut situations. Most of the time players are frustrated with a ruling, it's because 12 hours earlier the morning shift ruled 180° contrary to what is being ruled now, in an identical situation. Even if the situation requires a judgement call, there should only be a limited number of times situations like this arise before an official rule is made about said situation; thus, next time situation X arises, there is a precedent to follow and players don't have to rely on the whimsical judgments of various floors/shifts.

First, every room I know of has some kind of rulebook/poker guide that has clear-cut rules delineated. Some rooms have more detailed books than other rooms. But all have more than just the rule that says the shift manager's word is final. And for the poker room that prides itself as being the "Best on the East coast", I'd expect them to actually listen to and act upon what the players have to say, whether it's about comped rooms or about rules. Having a universally applied rule to as many situations as possible would, at the very least, show that the room manger(s) are really listening to the players.

Every time a ******ed ruling is made, and subsequently complained about, the inevitable directive is "Complain to Stan. He makes the rules." Well, this is me complaining to Stan. Hopefully others will follow suit.

PS: Ironically, in some cases the shift managers utilize their prerogative as having the final word to override the clear (and fair) rule. Yet in other cases, which really do require some common sense and logic, the same shifts insist on referring to the literal interpretation of the rule, regardless of how ******ed and senseless it is. Either way, the players get shafted and nothing ever gets done about it. And I really don't expect anything to change.

I trust a lot more the intuition and experience of a shift manager than I do 3,000 pages of Code Napoléon in a dusty old rulebook no one has read. more to the point, I have played for several days straight without any terrible rulings of the sort you suggest. there is a tremendous amount of customs and practices of dealers and players based on years of playing together which are sensible. The Borgata is very sensitive and responsive to the needs of its players. The poker guide and the 'Guidelines for using the betting line' 12/06... are well thought out. I have read the poker guide and it is quite good. Have you read the poker guide? And what specific disagreements do you have with the poker guide?

I actually think the exact opposite would be better for the game; the rulebook contains the literal rules for playing the game, and the only other rule is "Rulings will be made by the floor in the best interest and fairness of the game" (but probably worded better)

obviously this would also require some dedicated training, but the the staff should be better trained anyway

If the problem is that the existing rules aren't being followed or are being followed inconsistently, the solution is not more and more-detailed rules. The problem you're pointing to isn't a flaw in the rulebook, it's a training or management issue.

If, in situations which require interpretation and judgement calls, you're not seeing the same ruling in different instances, that's what the floor's discretion and supervisor's final word are there for. For clear-cut rule questions about the mechanics of the game, sure, it should come down the same every time. Once you get into some of the wacko situations that require some interpretation and some consideration of what balance of factors will resolve things most fairly, it's not necessarily going to end the same way every time. And remember the floor and the supervisor are hearing the details second- and third-hand, often from more than one person and often from multiple people who all want to tell their version at the same time. And until they resolve it, the game is stopped. The floor's discretion covers differences between now and this morning/yesterday/two weeks ago; the shift's final word provides some clear end to the discussion, without which some players would surely attempt to continue to argue until they got their way, and who cares if the next hand is ever dealt.

Of course, these powers have to be used for good and have to be backed by solid knowledge of the general rules. And, again, if either of those isn't the case, more and more-detailed rules aren't going to help you.

I agree with sirpupnyc. A lot of you guys are taking an all or nothing approach to this issue. You don't need to address every possible scenario of every possible action (but it wouldn't be bad if it could be done).

You need to define the rules for situations that occur often (or even "semi-regularly").

Let's go to the points that started this off...

Does the line play or doesn't it? If it plays, are players allowed to use forward motion, but not across the line, to get a read?

Is putting your cards down in front of you but not across the line a fold?

These situations happen all the time.

Well I forgot to get here in time for the HORSE tourney, but I'm hoping that once people start busting they'll want to play a mixed cash game. Two people on the pink chip interest lisy right now.

Will be there sunday-wed, would love to get pink or 10-20 mix going

also, anyone have stans email? I sent him a PM, but seems like he doesn't come on 2p2 very often lately.

StanStrickland@TheBorgata.com

... as posted and recommended by Stan in earlier posts of his.

< Does the line play or doesn't it? If it plays, are players allowed to use forward motion, but not across the line, to get a read? >

for some ideas, see post # 19914 :

4) For chips held in the hand, forward motion which reaches the vicinity of the extended betting line commits a player to take at least some minimum action; but if that action is a bet or a raise, the precise amount of the action may still need to be determined.

7) None of these guidelines supersede the authority of the poker supervisor to make decisions intended to preserve the equity and fairness of the game. Furthermore, any attempt by a player to use the betting line to manipulate or circumvent the rules of poker will be considered by management to be a punishable action.

---

Guidelines for using the betting line 12/06

< Is putting your cards down in front of you but not across the line a fold? >

for a real question (it depends on the facts) see: post # 19941, and for some thoughtful answers to that post see: # 19942, # 19943, and # 19944. it depends on a lot of things: not protecting your hand in seats one or seat ten, you Say the word "fold," etc.

interestingly, in the real situations that came up, (a) the poker guide and the Guidelines for using the betting line 12/06, provided a clear road map and (b) no one is complaining with the rulings of the shift manager in these real life scenarios.

Stan, love to look ahead. Anything on the calendar for July 13-15th?

in the 2-5nl games there is a grey area where forward motion is and isn't binding. it doesn't seem to be abused very often. For the most part, forward motion over the betting line is binding while forward motion past the cards is not. i don't think the rules need to be changed. seems to work fine.

"Hard rules" don't hinder angle shooters; they enable them. No one knows the rules better than an angler.

The best poker rooms leave room for intent, interpretation, and common sense. True, that leaves some grey areas, but it's better than the opposite IMO.

does anyone know how many runners the Borgata 6:00pm Friday $400 tourney gets? Also, generally till what time does the tournament last?

Anybody on here grind the Wednesday guarantee tournaments at the Borgata?

Was wondering approximately how many runners they get?

Approximate 1st place payout?

Would you say the field is:

A) Tough
B) Average
C) Weak
D) A bunch of spaz-ola's

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Live straddling comes to the Borg July 9 (or, at least, it becomes legal)?

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ge/temporaryorders.html
(second item, "Poker Options," a PDF called "borgatapokeroptionstext")

“Straddle” or “straddle bet” means an optional wager in some poker games that require blind wagers which only players sitting in specific betting positions at the poker table may place prior any cards being dealt.

Hey Stan or Tab,

Do you think that you guys could add a deep stacked, mid-week tourney? I think if there was say a $500 deep stacked (25k starting stack, 30 min blinds, 2 day) tourney on the first wednesday of every month it could be very successful. As we see from the BPO events, mid-week deep stack events are highly popular and one a month I think would be great and would certainly get players like me down to Borgata every month as opposed to only the open events.

Just an idea.

100bb cap with straddles is going to screw up the game IMO if everyone wants to do it. Even "smart" players seem to think it makes the game play bigger, when in fact it makes the game smaller because everyone is playing 50bb effectively and even if they don't adjust it leaves you no room to maneuver.

Straddle + single raised pot + cbet leaves you basically an all-in bet on the turn. So much for being able to double barrel effectively, sigh.

W/e though. I guess that's the way things are going. I hope people don't straddle all of the time, but I'm assuming a lot of the self-proclaimed superstars who generally suck are going to be doing it all the time to look cool. If you play at Borgata I'm sure you know the type I'm talking about.

Yep this is the big problem we have at Foxwoods in 2/5 NL where 500 is max buy in (100 BB) and people straddle every hand.

Agreed.. they really need to bump up the buy-in to 1000/3000 for 2/5 and 5/10 if they implement straddles. If they "resist" and don't allow straddles, even though it's legal, I feel at some point they will. It's better to deal with the issue now rather than later.

So are straddles going to be allowed in all of AC then?

Another change I read in there is the ability for up to four alternate hands between heads up players in an all-in pot during holdem or omaha games (running it multiple times). While I agree straddling might present an issue, this is certainly an awesome change.

Stan, will the Borgata be adopting either of these rule changes?

im also not a fan of straddles with 100bb stacks. borg's 2-5 max buyin absolutely needs to be raised to 1000 to ever get me in their 2/5. as it stands i only play 5-10 at borg and 2/5 at parx.

If Borgata adopts the straddle, am I correct in assuming that it will be permissible only UTG? I hate button straddles, as it's too advantageous for the player who gets to act last post-flop anyways.