most players and mgt. have no idea what collusion really is. they think its two players raising back and forth putting someone in the middle.
it takes many hours of play and sharp eyes and feel just to begin to detect it if it is played properly. rarely are the two players in the same hand other than for one bet.
if they are one is probably on the draw and the other is on a hand that is best at the time.

I tell you again, this team will have problems because every card in CAZ is already marked with fingerprints. If you shined a UV light on the deck you probably couldn't make out the pattern.

Interesting. So you believe a lot of cheating is done with invisible marks? How would cheats be able to see these marks? With special glasses?

We all know to shield the face of our cards from prying eyes... but are you implying we are foolish if we don't also shield the backs of the cards as well?

FWIW I approached the South Dakota Commission on Gaming as media asking about this complaint made by this poster in the other thread. They failed to respond to me. One of the poker rooms did respond. They acknowledged the complaint but said their investigation did not reveal any issues.

I used to live near Deadwood and have been hearing these same accusations for a few years. The complaints became common after the bet limits went up to $1,000. I have no first hand information about it but several in the poker playing community up there have their suspicions.

Does anyone know what the highest "spread limits" are around America?

It sounds as if South Dakota's $1000 is a very high limit, abnormally so? I would therefore assume that Arizona's $500 limit may be the next highest limit around the country? This would at least provide an explanation for why they would have come here, if indeed any of this accusation is accurate.

Is there a good reason they would go after large spread limit games instead of targeting no limit venues? I can think of a few possible reasons - more scrutiny (i.e Vegas), and better bankrolled (i.e. less fearful) players at no limit?

I'm no expert, I just report what I've read on websites. If they're using super duper smudge 'white flash' with appropriate contact lenses then there is really no defense other than generic "poker instinct." If they're using amatuer tactics like finger nail marks, finger print smudges, then you could catch them by getting your own polarized glasses and playing along. I have noticed more sunglasses worn by regs at CAZ who previously did not use them but I have no evidence of chicanery.

You notice veterans like Barry Greenstein always cover their hand with their hand.

As for collusion, soft collusion is tolerated already. A team should be detected if they use basic chip placing signals. But the normal betting strategy at CAZ so strange that I don't know how collusive play would be noticed. Generally though it would be stopped if you asked the dealer to examine someone's mucked hand.

In the end, your abstract poker sense should be able to pick up on when something is funny. If you see it, start mentioning it to people that you trust. Word will spread and more people will start paying attention, which is what the cheats do not want.

More information on this please? Is there another section of the forums that covers this topic?

Richard Marcus has a book and a website. The old rec.gambling.poker on the older USENET is probably still around. I dunno if it's in NVG somewhere too.

Russ Georgiev is spinning in his grave.

i had that tape at one time, i cant for the life of me figure out what i did with it. if i found it, id have to find a VCR anyway...

goodwill is your friend in finding a vcr

I remember having it on DVD. lulz.

Any and all details on the mix games would be appreciated. How often it runs, what games are played, etc. Moving to Phoenix soon and anxious to get back into some live mixed games again...it's been too long.

The mix games go almost every day; they have tons of games to choose from and it is players' choice. I don't play them so am not familiar with which ones are commonly played except that I have seen O8 often. The smallest game that I have ever seen is 40/80, and I have seen all the way up to 200/400 on occasion. On typical days there is one 40/80 table and one green-chip table, usually 75/150 or 100/200, although often they do not both go all day.

Thanks for the info; sounds like most live mixed...they sure do love their split-pot games. In Vegas, it was a lot of O8, Stud/8, Baduci, Badacey, and to a lesser extent...stud, razz, and 2-7.

Going to be 21 soon, so will be playing here a bit.

Why do they have spread limit and not NL? Does the 2/5 game run everyday?

Max bet allowed due to gaming compact or whatever is $500.

Yes (but it's 3/5)

You will find that in the top section( we don't spread mix in jackpot games) some combination of badugi, badeucy, badacey, O/8, Omaha Hi only, Holdem and 2-7, Stud/8.
The 40 game to a lesser extent the "Bad" variations when you get up to 100/200 or larger it shifts many times to half and half O/8(or HI only) and Holdem.

Depends on who is in the room playing, but dont be surprised to see similar selections to Vegas mix games here.( at least at the 75 level)

Have they ever tried to change it? It seems like there could be some big games here. (maybe a new rebirth like florida?)

It increased like 3 years ago from $150 max, so we are doing pretty good. It hardly affects the 2/3 and 3/5 games, but once you get to 10/20 it does seriously change the way the game is played.

Wow did not know it was $150 min 3 years ago. And I know there are big limit games, which makes me think that the player pool for higher games/tournys is here.

I remember the 3/150 game in the tents haha... Almost forgot that Az didn't spread higher than 150

Let's try $500 with a half kill first.

On a "typical" day there is almost never both a 40 and a green chip game running (one may break into another); jan-spring training is the notable exception. If the past two years are any indication of future games, it's usually one or the other, and green chip games often go long stretches running barely at all (especially summer-early october).

+150



That was always great to hear when you had a big hand and got raised. Plus 150!

I used to keep my reds in stacks of 150 too...