So between those account names posted how much total was won?

Just because a country allows internet gambling doesn't mean it condones theft. Shouldn't be tough to find the appropriate prosecutor and email them this thread along with a description of the stonewalling being done by UB.

Are UB and AP in business together b/c you can transfer $ from sight to sight which would make super user more likely?

1. AP management discovers players are certain at least one player has been cheating.
2. AP tries to cover it up.
3. Players prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was cheating going on meaning players had a large amount of money stolen from them
4. AP does something
5. KGC let AP keep their license and the police is not involved

AP management and KGC must both be part of the scam

1. Players prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was cheating going on at UB meaning players had a large amount of money stolen from them
2. UB claims to be doing something but days and weeks go by and nothing happens though it could be discovered in a day how much cheating has been going on (if management wanted to)

If again KGC does nothing serious about it, meaning canceling UBs license, and the police is again not involved then it must be beyond a reasonable doubt that KGC is part of the scam.

So someone must inform the relevant Canadian authorities to make sure they are involved this time.

Who will do it?

Hey guys.

I sent the following to the kgc, and It'd be great if you could all do the same. If we could send them 50-100 emails about being concerned about the issue it'd do a hell of a lot more then if they just get 1 or 2.

email: kgc@mck.ca
Subject: Concern Over Cheating on UltimateBet

Subject:

Dear Kahnawake Gaming Commission,

I am one of many concerned online poker players over the alleged cheating that has occurred on UltimateBet over the past year.

As i am sure you're well aware, there was a scandal on absolute poker where players were cheating by having the ability to see their opponents hole cards. Up until it was very obvious (and a mistake by absolute poker to release a file that contained all hands and made the evidence all but irrefutable) absolute poker denied any wrongdoing and refused to investigate. Whether it was an inside job or a breech of security- i dont know and to be honest i dont think that matters too much.

On ultimatebet (whose ownership is directly connected with that of absolute poker) there have been a large group of players winning at extreme amounts. They played with a style preflop and post that is unlike any other successful players. Some, in short handed games played over 60% of their hands, and raised over 40%. These players played against some the internets best players and they won. They killed them. In fact they did so well it is almost statistically impossible for them to win at the rate they did. Furthermore, nowhere else online have players with similar styles ever won at anywhere near the same rate they did on ultimate bet. To add more mystery to this, most of these players then deleted their accounts within weeks of the absolute poker scandal.

Let me restate that last bit. A group of players started playing on ub. They played a style that up until now was never successful at high limits. Depending on the details there were between 10-30 of these accounts and they won somewhere between $2-5 million dollars. And then they decided that they dont want to play on ultimate bet anymore and quit.

I'm asking you for help because I dont know what we can do to press the issue. Some members of the 2p2 community have been in contact with Phil Hellmuth, but he has not been able to get UB to release any official statement. Based on the things UB has been telling players who inquire about the potential cheating, it seems that ultimatebet is trying its best to hope all the allegations die down.

I am quite sure that you are aware of the issues at hand. Have you begun an investigation? Have the Canadian authorities been contacted- and if not, why?

If we, a substantial majority of the high volume customers of sites such as Absolute Poker and Ultimate bet are going to continue to play on these sites, we need reassurances that the sites we play on are safe. This requires 1) a press release from you to the poker playing community over what has been going on at Ultimate Bet with regards to the NioNio account and all of the other alleged accounts (of which there are many). 2) An easy way to establish contact with you (or even ultimate bet for that matter) to make sure that our concerns are being dealt with in a professional manner. 3) Reassurances that any unfair or illegal activity will lead to refunds to those affected and those guilty will be brought to the appropriate authorities.

A discussion of the UltimateBet scandal can be found on the twoplustwo forums at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ad.php?t=99247

Thanks

i just saw a mention of twenty1 and i just wanna add that i did v well against him.

Well, its located on an indian reserve so I'm not sure if they have the same laws as Canada. I'm no lawyer but when you checked the terms and agreements, I'm sure they forfeited some of your rights if you get cheated.

"Both the Canadian and Quebec governments dispute the legality of Kahnawake's gambling operations, but have not risked taking further action due to the harsh international repercussions that followed the Oka Crisis. The websites hosted within Kahnawake are the only privately owned gambling sites that have operated in continental North America without legal action being taken against them."(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahnawake)

That's even more reason why the Canadian government probably won't get involved. Looks like we're at the mercy of the KGC to handle this.

http://loukrieger.blogspot.com/2008/...l-nearing.html
So the owner of UB/AP helped start part of the KGC? Sounds fishy as hell...I wouldn't get my hopes up about anything being done.

Police or some other type of authorities should def. be called, Im surprised the players who were cheated havent called any form of police back in during the AP scandal let alone this deal with UB.


stealthcow, email sent. I think someone should talk to a mod and get this stickied in all the forums having to do with poker like there was for the AP deal, or at least some threads started in other forums as well.

Thanks. Its disgusting that its taken so long and so littles been done by the kgc and ub. I agree that the authorities need to be contacted. Maybe i'm a googletard but i had no idea where to start? Do we contact a general provincial police force? Is there a Canadian equivalent to the fbi?

Also- if we're going to contact them we'll need a few things. First we'll want to organize/ present the information we have a bit clearer and in an easier manner for them to read. 2nd, we should have a bunch of pros (or those that file as pros) sign their names on whatever we send that says something along the lines of 'we believe with extremely strong conviction that foul play occurred here. Professional poker is my job and while winrates this high over so many hands isn't outside the realm of possibility - it certainly looks like foul play occured ...' Because random joe schmoe isn't going to have any idea how much we know about the game/ winrates/ optimal playing styles etc.


stealthcow-

Both the Canadian and Quebec governments dispute the legality of Kahnawake's gambling operations, but have not risked taking further action due to the harsh international repercussions that followed the Oka Crisis (in 1990)

If Kahnawake allows hard core criminals to run sites like AP and UB and will not remove their licenses even when faced with evidence that makes it clear beyond a reasonable doubt that management has stolen millions of $ then that is exactly what the Canadian government needs to force Kahnawake to stop allowing gambling. So Kahnawake council will have a much different approach to this than KGC (unless the council is also part of the scam in which case we have a national canadian scandal).

The Kahnawá:ke Gaming Commission was established in June 1996. The Commission is empowered to regulate and control gaming and related activities within and from the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawá:ke. These gaming activities are regulated in accordance with the highest principles of honesty and integrity.

the highest principles of honesty and integrity.
LOL

This is the Kahnawake council it is importent that they be involved along with the Canadian police:

http://www.kahnawake.com/council/chiefcouncil.asp

I think it would be perfect if some canadian citizen who was screwed in either the AP or UB scandal makes a formal complaint with Canadian authorities AND Kahnawake Council.

Does anybody really know the type of people we are talking about here? Hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake here, involving an outfit that tries to operate in utmost secrecy. The whole operation sounds like something the mafia would be involved in. Would you want to be the first to file a claim with the Canadian government?

For all we know AL Green's bones have been picked clean by the crabs already at the bottom of the Caribbean. That might even be the reason no one was prosecuted in the AP scandal.
Look at the murder rates in any major N. American city. One week after a murder nobody even talks about it anymore, and most of those murders were over something relatively insignificant. How would someone trying to fly under the radar deal with someone that threatens a mega million dollar income stream? If you are going to file a claim, you should make sure your family is safe, out of the way, and you're well insured.

Ur a moron.

One or more of the people who were cheated should get a lawyer and sue this company. If I was cheated I would have gotten a lawyer and gone after these guys and really put it to them. I havent been cheated though and all I know about this whole business is what I read on 2+2.

QFT

This is so pathetic. These crooks from costa rica and gibraltar can do whatever the **** they want and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. I last checked this thread almost 2 weeks ago and it looks like absolutely no progress has been made...no statement...no anything.

For starters, it isn't difficult to write your Canadian reps and the Indian gaming regulatory body to complain. Somebody post the addresses. Any UB player can complain, just ask if you've been cheated too and how can you know.

In the letters I would be explicit about involving the media if they don't take action. That's one thing the media is for. Also, I would word the accusations of cheating more strongly and cc Phil Hellmuth and all other UB player reps.

No clue if you can sue.

Get creative and make this painful for UB. Someone create a t-shirt with something clever and to the point and post a picture here. Back might list the superuser accounts, hands played, amount won, ptbb/100, VPIP and other condemning evidence with final column "Account closed." The bottom might say: UltimateBet's response: Did nothing.

Wear the t-shirts to tournaments. They've stonewalled too long. It's now time to publicize the problem.

Just talked to Phil Hellmuth. I can't believe what he just told me.

i bet he says the same at next years nbc championship.

Look, I know you turds around here love to run Poker Tracker 24/7 and eek out your meager few BB / 100 playing your mathematically correct multi table poker. I just want to point out to you simple minded people that I run around 58% to the flop in 6 max poker. I also won over 50% of hands I play and average 60+ BB per 100. Now I also know that you monkeys can't accept that anyone is better than your beloved friends here but I had to comment anyhow as the idioticy pisses me off. Find a new argument or work on improving your game please.

lol good level

LOL, 60+bb per 100... at 5nl?

I hate freedom of speech.

So sick that UB is making the exact same mistakes as AP after the fact.

QFT, and it sucks.

pretty ironic that in trying to call people stupid you use a word that doesn't exist

Jesus, I can't believe he managed to level so many people.