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Making a Murderer Making a Murderer

01-20-2016 , 11:30 AM
City of LA just settled two cases for $26M. One guy spent 26 years in prison, another 34 years. Police ignoring some evidence, lying about other, coercing witnesses, etc.

People wonder why cops would do something illegal to make a case. It's not like they're paid per conviction. None-the-less, there's obviously a lot of pressure to get convictions, coupled with almost complete impunity for anyone other than the tax payers who might have to pay a settlement.
01-20-2016 , 12:10 PM
Part of the mentality comes from police believing a person is guilty and thus they feel they have to lie or manipulate evidence to make sure they get convicted.

Unfortunately our entire justice system has been bastardized to find someone to tie to a crime and convict them regardless of the evidence or reality.

I am sure it is very difficult for the well intentioned officers and prosecutors who know someone is absolutely guilty but just can't prove it. However that is no reason to pervert the system. Then there are those who are not so well intentioned who have no qualms about doing whatever they want.

The reality is the police in this country have very little oversight so there is almost no risk or downside. It's even worse in small rural areas where there is literally no oversight of any kind.
01-20-2016 , 01:44 PM
For those who think the cops killed her, to come up with a massive frame job because they were being sued, why not kill Avery instead? Isn't that far easier? Just make him disappear. Problem solved.

Framing Avery does nothing to stop the lawsuit. In fact, he still won the suit. Unfortunately, he had to settle for a trivial amount to hire lawyers. But if he is dead, that doesn't happen.
01-20-2016 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabby Hayes Making a Murderer
It's gets even more sadistic when we see Colborn escorting both of them to prison after their verdicts. That's power/psychopath stuff. That's him telling the world you can't **** with me, I'm invincible. Serial killer stuff. Anyone with a brain in that dept if it wasn't so corrupt would have said, hey Colborn maybe you should sit this one out.
I noticed that when they were hauling Brendan around. These people are just completely clueless. There isn't anyone else on the payroll available to escort a prisoner?
01-20-2016 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeraz Making a Murderer
For those who think the cops killed her, to come up with a massive frame job because they were being sued, why not kill Avery instead? Isn't that far easier? Just make him disappear. Problem solved.

Framing Avery does nothing to stop the lawsuit. In fact, he still won the suit. Unfortunately, he had to settle for a trivial amount to hire lawyers. But if he is dead, that doesn't happen.
Don't you think the cops would be smart enough to know he would have to settle. Killing him would look too suspicious.
01-20-2016 , 02:44 PM
This was my post a few weeks ago. Definitely TLDR, but would like to hear counter points to my theory. Includes why it's ST, and reasons why they couldn't "just kill him".

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthesaus Making a Murderer
Here's my conspiratard spew:

This theory is close IMO. A few follow up posts on reddit further theorizing that there's no way it was ST and Bobby without Manitowoc County assisting, almost bring it home. But they still want to believe that it was pure coincidence that ST and Bobby happen to gift wrap Manitowoc Law enforcement a murder 3 weeks after their depositions and 20 feet from the front door of the man who is deposing them. ST/Bobby even would have given MC a jump start on the frame work. Some even want to believe that the murder was actually an accident or suicide turned into golden opportunity for everyone (except SA and BD of course).

Probabilities simply have to be off the bottom of the charts for all this to coincide.

Probabilities of these many events coinciding with a theoretical guilty Steven Avery are even lower than the above theories, and are bordering on absolutely ridiculous.

I do think that ST is involved, but can't say much about Bobby. Bobby is BD's brother. Doesn't seem like he'd just be fine with BD rotting away in jail for the rest of his life. Can't say the same for the step-dad though. If this was a frame job, then it was a complete frame job from well before October 31, 2005 to the present. Manitowoc County didn't just happen to stumble upon a murder yards from SA's front door at this absolutely perfect time. ST didn't just decide to kill someone out of the blue or out of rage or desire and then execute all the steps required to pull of framing SA all while luckboxing the fact that MC decided to just roll with it and continue the frame. Ridiculous. If even one bit of this evidence is not legit, then this was planned well before TH arrived at Avery Salvage on Oct. 31st. It involved everyone we've seen to some degree, and probably a few we haven't seen.

It's also likely that those who are lying and covering up don't know or didn't know that Avery did not commit this murder (although I hope they are doubting that now). They could just be following orders that are rolling down a chain that is anchored by 2-3 guys at the top who do know everything and stand to lose money, future money, status, rank, pride, etc . And perhaps it was enough threat of loss to hatch a plan to make Avery go away. And no, he cannot just be killed as the former sheriff mentioned. That doesn't absolve them of their past transgressions. That doesn't right their wrongs. If they kill him, he becomes a martyr. If they never sent him to jail the first time, maybe he doesn't die in whatever tragic staged death/murder they would come up with. But framing him for rape, murder, mutilation?....well that just makes everything go away, doesn't it?

In my opinion, in the minds of the co-conspirators who are not pulling the strings, they decided long ago Steven Avery is guilty because he's an Avery. And if they are twisting the truth a bit to make sure a guilty, murdering, raping psychopath is sent to jail, then they did their jobs and can sleep at night and will get promoted and keep living their normal lives feeling that much safer. I remember the sketch artist saying he doubted the new DNA tests that exonerated Avery and still believed that Avery raped that woman. After his full exoneration. Can you imagine what must be going through that guy's head when he sees Avery being hugged by the governor and about to win or settle a $36 mil lawsuit? That is the former DEPUTY CHIEF. Some of the seemingly leaked info towards the end of the doc showed us what vicious, slanderous rumor mongering is prevalent in that town about the Averys.

Why would anyone go to these great lengths to handle the Avery problem? Who knows. Maybe someone had plans for some or all of the 36 mil that county stood to lose and now the freeway they were going to build and profit greatly on is going to have to be put on hold. Maybe a former sheriff or 2 plan on running for office somewhere but who's going to vote for someone with a record of terrible police work, cover ups and lies that caused the county to lose 36 million while they were in charge. Maybe with Avery not around and legal bills piling up, The Avery's have to sell the salvage yard. Maybe that land would make a perfect cannabis farm when Wisconsin legalizes and regulates and hey, maybe some names and reputations can be cleared too.

My point is that there may be reasons, but its all just conjecture.

But who could pull off the murder? A member of Law Enforcement? No way. Too risky. If their DNA is somehow found on the scene mixed with TH's, or someone witnesses the act, its over for everybody. A hired hitman? Maybe, but again, too risky. If cops get caught talking to a hitman and Avery's name is in the convo, its game over. No, it's gotta be someone on the inside. Someone with access to SA's yard and knows the area and can move about both day and night. Someone who's close, but not TOO close so as to have ties and allegiances too strong that might cause 2nd thoughts. Someone who's controllable that we have history on and if they fail or get caught, we can simply deny everything and say he's trying to fabricate this stuff to play on the fact that his brother-in-law had the same thing happen. Someone who knows how to handle a weapon well. Someone who knows how to handle bodies, dead bodies, bloody dead bodies and fire....like a hunter or something.

But how do we get him to do it? Maybe he's sick of the heat SA's bringing on his family. Maybe he is jealous of the money and fame Avery has at the moment and he sees an opportunity to land a few mil himself while upping his chances to take over the yard and business. Maybe he's not so fond of the slow kid and wouldn't be too crushed if the kid was raised by the state instead of living at home until he's 40. Maybe he mentions some of this to someone at the town tavern one night and meetings are arranged, ideas are tossed around. Maybe it's mentioned to him that if a dead body ever wound up near Steven Avery's property that Manitowoc would make sure SA was charged and oh by the way, your great uncle in Madison just added you to his will.

- That's how I see things potentially happening.

The story is incredible nonetheless. It is much, much better than fiction and I hope in the coming days, months, (not years) that we see at least some new facts rise to the surface.
01-20-2016 , 02:48 PM
lol people think the cops executed her? amazing.
01-20-2016 , 03:35 PM
I watched the whole thing, watched brandens confession in detail and even read some of the trial transcripts..

Few things,

branden confessed to things that he shouldn't have known with little "coercion" from police. He knew teressa was in the back seat of the rav 4 after she died, he knew that she was killed in the garage, he knew that she was burned in the fire pit, he knew that she was shot more than one time in the head, he knew that she was shot on the left side of her head, he knew that stevan had purchased shackles beforehand..

All of these things are corroborated by evidence. This was his initial confession on march 1st, before that he was only thought to have been a witness of some kind. After he confesses then the cops start grilling him and imo call him out when they know he is lying or is having an issue with memory. Everything after that first 30-45 mins of the march 1st confession is pretty much all the doc shows and makes it look like they are talking him into confessing details. The details had already been confessed and later he attempted to recant that confession by further lying.

Stevan had blood in teressas car, a bullet that matched his gone in the garage that had teressas dna on it, her car on his property, her dna on the hood latch (which branden also testified to stevan removing the battery) had her bones on his property.. What else would one need to convict someone if it isn't that much evidence?
01-20-2016 , 03:37 PM
Also, the whole thing with brendans cousin.. She also knew details of the crime she shouldn't have. Which leads me to believe branden did in fact tell her about it and she later lied in court.
01-20-2016 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraleyight Making a Murderer
I watched the whole thing, watched brandens confession in detail and even read some of the trial transcripts..

Few things,

branden confessed to things that he shouldn't have known with little "coercion" from police. He knew teressa was in the back seat of the rav 4 after she died, he knew that she was killed in the garage, he knew that she was burned in the fire pit, he knew that she was shot more than one time in the head, he knew that she was shot on the left side of her head, he knew that stevan had purchased shackles beforehand..

All of these things are corroborated by evidence. This was his initial confession on march 1st, before that he was only thought to have been a witness of some kind. After he confesses then the cops start grilling him and imo call him out when they know he is lying or is having an issue with memory. Everything after that first 30-45 mins of the march 1st confession is pretty much all the doc shows and makes it look like they are talking him into confessing details. The details had already been confessed and later he attempted to recant that confession by further lying.

Stevan had blood in teressas car, a bullet that matched his gone in the garage that had teressas dna on it, her car on his property, her dna on the hood latch (which branden also testified to stevan removing the battery) had her bones on his property.. What else would one need to convict someone if it isn't that much evidence?
Did I miss the part where there was evidence she was shot in the garage? Do you have super secret unearthed blood evidence none of us know about? Or did they manage to use a new form of splatter proof gunshot? Is SA a supergenius who has found a way to shoot somebody in a through and through without any splatter?
01-20-2016 , 03:51 PM
Evidence she was shot in the garage that is corroborated with brendans confession..

there was a bullet that had teressas dna in the garage that was matched to stevans gun

the garage was recently cleaned with bleach, this is corroborated because stevans jeans that he was wearing that day were covered in bleach

That isn't good evidence for you? Brendan is saying "we killed her in the garage, this is how we did it" and evidence is found to corroborate that.
01-20-2016 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by master3004 Making a Murderer
Did I miss the part where there was evidence she was shot in the garage? Do you have super secret unearthed blood evidence none of us know about? Or did they manage to use a new form of splatter proof gunshot? Is SA a supergenius who has found a way to shoot somebody in a through and through without any splatter?
Do you really think splatter would be that difficult to clean up? Is it not possible he put her on tarp and wrapped something around her head then shot her twice? Then cleaned up the garage floor after?

Why is there a bullet in his garage from his gun with her dna on it?
01-20-2016 , 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraleyight Making a Murderer
Evidence she was shot in the garage that is corroborated with brendans confession..

there was a bullet that had teressas dna in the garage that was matched to stevans gun

the garage was recently cleaned with bleach, this is corroborated because stevans jeans that he was wearing that day were covered in bleach

That isn't good evidence for you? Brendan is saying "we killed her in the garage, this is how we did it" and evidence is found to corroborate that.
The bullet was not matched to Stevens gun, it was the same bullet type. The fragment was too small to match to any gun, and there was no blood spatter found on his rifle.

The bleach type used to clean the garage would not have prevented the blood from showing up with luminol.

The garage was a filthy ****ing mess, and even if the bleach would clean the blood, he would have had to dump it all over the piles of **** covering the garage, and there is no evidence he did


So short answer... no, no the evidence you are presenting is not good enough for me to show that any murder took place in that garage
01-20-2016 , 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraleyight Making a Murderer
Do you really think splatter would be that difficult to clean up? Is it not possible he put her on tarp and wrapped something around her head then shot her twice? Then cleaned up the garage floor after?

Why is there a bullet in his garage from his gun with her dna on it?
Again, the bullet was not matched to his gun, the test was tainted as was testified to by the lady who was looking for dna on the bullet, and if you are taking Brendan's confession as gospel then there is obviously a part in the confession where he says they laid out a plastic tarp before shooting her and then a part where he describes how they got rid of the tarp. I assume you can provide those sections here.
01-20-2016 , 05:32 PM
If the bullet had been found in the garage before BD said anything about TH being murdered in the garage, then that might constitute incriminating, if not damning, evidence.

The fact that the bullet was magically found shortly after they got this "information" from Brendan, when the garage had previously been searched does nothing but strengthen the framing and planted evidence theory.

The bullet never made any sense to me. A bullet fragment implies that the bullet, or at least part of it, exited her head, and rolled away far enough that it was missed by SA and BD's otherwise miraculously meticulous clean job, yet there is no other blood or other DNA in the area of the bullet, and only trace amounts of DNA that may or may not have been blood, on the bullet itself? It doesn't prove Avery didn't kill her, but the bullet alone, on a spectrum of "Definitely planted after the fact to help bolster the case" to "proof that TH was killed in the garage", definitely falls way closer to the former.
01-20-2016 , 05:45 PM
http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/dark...twist-41939203

This guy thinks the Zodiac killer did it....not kidding.

It's actually kind of interesting.

There is also a new podcast out called Rebutting a Murderer, 10 parts, follows along with the doc. It's made by one of the reporters who was there for the whole thing and thinks SA is 100% guilty.
01-20-2016 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraleyight Making a Murderer
I watched the whole thing, watched brandens confession in detail and even read some of the trial transcripts..

Few things,

branden confessed to things that he shouldn't have known with little "coercion" from police. He knew teressa was in the back seat of the rav 4 after she died, he knew that she was killed in the garage, he knew that she was burned in the fire pit, he knew that she was shot more than one time in the head, he knew that she was shot on the left side of her head, he knew that stevan had purchased shackles beforehand..

All of these things are corroborated by evidence. This was his initial confession on march 1st, before that he was only thought to have been a witness of some kind. After he confesses then the cops start grilling him and imo call him out when they know he is lying or is having an issue with memory. Everything after that first 30-45 mins of the march 1st confession is pretty much all the doc shows and makes it look like they are talking him into confessing details. The details had already been confessed and later he attempted to recant that confession by further lying.

Stevan had blood in teressas car, a bullet that matched his gone in the garage that had teressas dna on it, her car on his property, her dna on the hood latch (which branden also testified to stevan removing the battery) had her bones on his property.. What else would one need to convict someone if it isn't that much evidence?
The police wrote him a script and acted it out numerous times to make sure to frame Branden real good like. Or maybe they planted some kind of microchip in his brain and took control of his mind and body to make him say all those things he shouldn't have known.
01-20-2016 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx702 Making a Murderer
Don't you think the cops would be smart enough to know he would have to settle. Killing him would look too suspicious.
Not sure if this is serious, but A+ work either way.
01-20-2016 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by master3004 Making a Murderer
The bullet was not matched to Stevens gun, it was the same bullet type. The fragment was too small to match to any gun
This is the first I have heard of this. Where did you get this information?

Quote:
The fragment was too small to match to any gun, and there was no blood spatter found on his rifle.
There was no dna found on the rifle either. Which means it was cleaned. Not even stevans dna was on the rifle.

Quote:
The bleach type used to clean the garage would not have prevented the blood from showing up with luminol.
Any testimony to this in trial? Seems like pretty damning evidence if true.

Quote:
The garage was a filthy ****ing mess, and even if the bleach would clean the blood, he would have had to dump it all over the piles of **** covering the garage, and there is no evidence he did
You are making assumptions about how much mess killing her would have left. I already gave you scenario which would not have left much of a mess.
01-20-2016 , 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by master3004 Making a Murderer
Again, the bullet was not matched to his gun, the test was tainted as was testified to by the lady who was looking for dna on the bullet, and if you are taking Brendan's confession as gospel then there is obviously a part in the confession where he says they laid out a plastic tarp before shooting her and then a part where he describes how they got rid of the tarp. I assume you can provide those sections here.
In what way was it tainted? Please elaborate.. i know how it was "tainted" and it wasn't by the way. Do you?

I am more concerned with what brendan admitted to knowing than I am with what he hasn't admitted to knowing and you should be too.
01-20-2016 , 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalerobk2 Making a Murderer
The police wrote him a script and acted it out numerous times to make sure to frame Branden real good like. Or maybe they planted some kind of microchip in his brain and took control of his mind and body to make him say all those things he shouldn't have known.
I'm sold now lol.
01-20-2016 , 05:51 PM
Weird that the people itt who love the prosecution are so dedicated to defending evidence when the prosecution itself was like "even if the evidence was planted, he's still guilty." "And btw, if you say not guilty you're accusing the police department of murdering TH."
01-20-2016 , 05:58 PM
Wonder if a .22 bullet will exit a skull.
01-20-2016 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraleyight Making a Murderer
That isn't good evidence for you? Brendan is saying "we killed her in the garage, this is how we did it" and evidence is found to corroborate that.
Was that before or after he said that they slit her throat while she was tied down in the bed?

Scary that people like you make up juries.
01-20-2016 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraleyight Making a Murderer
1. This is the first I have heard of this. Where did you get this information?



2. There was no dna found on the rifle either. Which means it was cleaned. Not even stevans dna was on the rifle.



3. Any testimony to this in trial? Seems like pretty damning evidence if true.

4. You are making assumptions about how much mess killing her would have left. I already gave you scenario which would not have left much of a mess.
1. The bullet was matched to a 22. Any 22.

2. Steven's rifle had not been fired for a long time. I don't know how DNA works but if the rifle just sat there mounted for a long time, DNA probably falls off?

3. There was evidence that showed the floor was not cleaned to a very high level with products needed to clear any blood evidence. The floor had been minimally cleaned, which one would expect to happen on an auto garage floor.

4. Assumptions are being made about how she was killed.

      
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