he wasn't on a heater...if you click on his sessions, he was up and down a little at 25NL..like 8 bucks up a session, 12 bucks down...something like that...i don't remember exactly.

This thread is getting out of control, appears there are several "smoke screens" and posts to divert attention. It all seems a little too fishy.

Be interesting to see what information stars discloses since they are in a tough spot.

god this
and it's really ****ing frustrating
this whole situation warrants investigation but as of yet there isn't NEAR enough evidence to incriminate gary.

Look man it's just very weird how you present some of this stuff. It's not really nitpicking... losing $220 in 19 hands of a tilt sessions is exactly the kind of precedent we are looking for to see just how much of a freak occurance this is. When someone else brought this up, you (rather rudley IMO) basically told the guy to get his fact straight. It turns out he was right, and again state it in this way which is completley biased.

The relationships are really questionable. Let's do digging there, as it is where we are likley to uncover something. If people comb of 30 hands oh anyones database they are bound to find these types of occurances. I agree that if we can establish a pattern of them with people he may know, this looks very bad for gary. However info which suggests that this is a once in a lifetime freak occurance that this dude played 1-2 is being ignored. As is evidence that suggests the last time he did, he dumped over a buy in 19 hands, which is consistent with what happened here. I agree that there are a lot of conincidences. I do not agree with the how some data is being presented that isn't really at all fishy outside the connection he may have to these two guys. People are presenting things in a way which makes them much more suspect than they are IMO. These thigns happen, and people need to be focusing on finding out where Gary is lying about his connection to these people if they really want to prove something happened here.

Jalex,

pretty good job of revealing suspicious information but by no means condemning.

Pasterbator and ggbman,
you are both clearly the voices of reason itt.


All,

Anyone who emphatically believes OP is innocent or is guilty has 0 understanding of what is going on. The hands themselves are not damning. If I'm sitting at a 100nl+ 6 max table you could probably find less than 4 degrees of separation between me and every other player there, its not a huge community. The players here have only 2 degrees of separation and are playing substantially above their usual limits. Its suspicious but its also a friday night when shot taking is most likely.

Inconclusive but eagerly awaiting further developments. Please stop extrapolating off of unsubstantiated evidence and actually find more. A ruling now would 100% have to go in OP's favor until more is found.

Here is my motivation for 'nitpicking' one little detail.


Bolded A) You have no 'vested interest in this' (Other than hating cheaters, and you've clearly decided that Gary is a cheater), and one of your main reasons for thinking he cheated is because of point 2, where you clearly give misinformation. You spent 20 hours to get to the truth, it took 3 minutes for me on PTR to 1) find out that Breeezzz had previous history at 200NL, 2) That that history took place less than a year ago on June 20th, 2009, and 3) that he lost more money in that shorter session than he did on Friday during this prop bet.

If you're going to be a party with no vested interested in this, present the facts, only the facts, no opinions, and do it without bias.

Bolded B) They are proven to have connections to a friend of Gary. Are they proven to have any connections to Gary? Is there any proof of any recent posts between ANY of them?

Bolded C) You're now commenting on someone's play style without having any sort of history with him. Meanwhile, multiple respected (for their play) regs have posted in here that that fold with QQ to a fish was standard. Yet here you present it as if its the smoking gun. Clearly, this was your opinion, and not fact, but you past it off as such.

D) You mention that he is a loser (according to PTR) and that he suddenly decides to put up a massive amount of money ($2500) to do a prop bet based on doing little more than breaking even over a 30k hand stretch on the fishiest day of the week. This is a person that has been a slight loser/BE for over 1,000,000 hands. Maybe he just likes to gamble? Perhaps $2,500 isn't really that much? Perhaps he's like every other poker player out there that misjudges his skill level? As poker players, even from afar, we've witnessed a bunch of degens make a ton of seemingly horrible bets. No one that AGREED to the bet seemed to mind when they thought they were printing money.

E) He apparently was 3betting with crap more than just against those two players, but in this case its presented in such a manner than it seems like the whole time he only 3-bet junk against those two players.

F) And this is the big one. You say:
This is 100% true. Also true: RoSeeker's relationship with the 2 players LOOKs suspicious. But, for me personally, all of that was washed away by the fact that none of this was presented in an unbiased manner. Whether you meant to or not, all of your posts had an air of 'HAHA WATCH ME **** KICK GARY IN THE GONADS, ****IN CHEATER' to them. You came off as against him from the beginning, prop bets were dumb and he was dumb for cheating in them. I don't know if he cheated, but I know that nothing has been presented to make me want to beat his ass.

I had edited the post that you quoted, by the way. Its not my intention to make this too confrontational, but I do think things are being handled poorly/unfairly. And I fully expect my IP to be checked.

Not in light of the rest of the info, it doesn't.

And it doesn't because if they are cheating, Stars will figure it out.


There's an awful lot of nit picking going on of individual elements and ignoring the big picture. Anytime you look into something like this, you're never going to find perfect complete information, because if they are guilty they would have tried to hide it and if they are innocent it's obviously impossible to find perfect evidence of guilt.

This entire situation should hopefully illuminate for everyone (including the OP) why prop bet likes this are ******ed.

Isn't the big picture made up of nit picking?

It obviously looks shady as **** but I can't see how Gary can be potentially screwed over until there is concrete proof.

After this one day prop bets should be banned

ok let me see if i can break this down
1. player jumps several stakes...you yourself say this occurs all the time (and you're right)
2. he's connected to the OP, unless I missed something big his connection is through someone else that OP has chatted with? in that case, im connected to probably half of the NL200 field. guess what? the online poker community is huge relative to the amount of players.
3. jumped several stakes on the day of the bet. this is entirely irrelevant as it's no different than the first point
4. donked off cash to the OP, i guess he either wins or loses? keep in mind gary certainly put in the most volume that day by FAR so he would be the most likely to get a regfish's tilt cash.
5. someone else jumped stakes and donked off cash, did this guy have a connection to op as well?



what im trying to say is none of this is very unlikely at all. i searched through my db of the last 30k hands and found a number of people that fit 2 or 3 of the points and with a little research i could probably find a couple people i've won money from that jumped stakes as well. please please explain to me how this is so amazingly unlikely to occur in the space of 30k hands?

and from what im reading jalex seems to be manipulating and flat out lying about many different things as well

riverfenix asked about a PoG WW player, they'd be finding a ****ing **** load of wolves itt right now.

#4 is a reaching assumption - With Gary being a losing player it would not be most likely for him to end up with the fish's money regardless of how many hands he played that day.

why hasn't breezzzee responded to this?

+1

If stars cant find any damning evidence against Gary, anything but shipping him his winnings would be an absolute joke.

#4 is almost entirely assumption based regardless
i would think gary is +EV against a microstakes grinder taking a shot at NL200 (for whatever reason) although that's not provable at all, hell he could be an amazing player that runs terrible when taking a shot. the point being, gary would be in the best position to take money from him (HIM NOT BEING BREEZZZ YOU RESULTS ORIENTED ****S, HIM BEING ANY GIVEN LOWER STAKES REG THAT CHOSE TO TAKE A SHOT AT NL200) on account of gary playing the most hands at the limit, maybe bad wording but thats what im trying to say.

His conduct is very weird. I am not saying he is deliberatley trying to screw Gary, but I don't believe that he is impartial as he claims either. I also don't 100% believe that Gary is innocent either, there are some things that are weird. Some people (like me, Keanu, etc...) are trying to point that certain points of "evidence" aren't really evidence at all. They would be considered 100% normal if not a possible relationship between Gary and these players. Which is I can buy that it needs to be looked into and that something may be off. But the way that people have basically taken non-incrimating evidence, and combined it with some weird stuff that should be looked into and gotten this conclusion of "OMG DIRTY SCUMBAG CHEATER" is ridiculous.

he responded to Blackize in a PM IIRC.

He posted as fact that breeezzz lost $500 that night. I told him to check his facts.

How do you figure he lost more money on June 20th? He lost $339 during the prop bet, the PTR graph shows a ~$200 dip around the timeframe of June 20. Why don't we just agree that you've made a couple immaterial factual errors in your 3 minutes of analysis, and that I didn't notice he had 20 additional hands of 1/2nl, when I was checking the sessions tab for every player that lost money to Gary.



Why don't you get right on that? Nothing stopping you from trying to prove connections...



Where were the posts that this was standard from respected posters? Wanna run this hand past some good players, assuming I don't qualify? The guy was playing like 85% of his hands...the fold is completely non standard.

The fact that the evidence caused me to form an opinion doesn't mean I didn't present the information in an unbiased manner. I have stated many times that individual pieces of information alone are meaningless, I posted hand histories that COULD be supportive of Gary's case (but also aren't conclusive by themselves of anything), and genuinely hope that the ultimate result is Gary being exonerated.

However, for _ME_ personally, it will take equally strong evidence to explain away all these coincidences to believe that everything was above board. After doing all the research, it seemed to me that the overall conclusion was pretty cut and dry that something fishy was going on, so certainly that colored my language, but I WAS objective with the information I posted.

I don't want to beat his ass either, I _do_ think prop bets like this are dumb between unknowns because of this exact scenario.


Thanks for the intended edit, I'll happily retract any irritated tone directed at you as well. :P

did you read the posts from gary's friend? i mean he basically tried to lie about his relationship with breeezzz right?

Nostalgica,

The question has been asked several times, but I have not seen u answer it.

Have you transferred any money to the 2 accts. in question in the last 30 days??

Also did u have any piece of op's bet?? (did u buy any of his action?)

yeah
this is far and away the most shady thing that has happened imo.

don't get me wrong, i think the actions that have been taken are great and exactly what i would expect: getting more people to analyze the hands, contacting stars, and to see what else can be dug up. it's the dishonesty, manipulation, nit-picking, and general complete lack of understanding of what actually happens and probably as a whole that's just really irritating. claiming the situation with breeezzzz exemplifies that...how often do you win a stack someone taking a shot at NL200 that has a 2nd generation connection to you (a friend coached him, a friend knows him irl, a friend's relative, etc. etc.)?

that's literally all that has happened and people act like it's either collusion or some act of god for it to occur...it's just ridiculous.

So in the interest of the fact that I _do_ care about the fact some of you perceive me as being partial, I'm going to quit posting in the thread unless people ask me specific questions, instead of continuing to appear like I have some grudge against Gary, because I don't know him from Adam.

My intent was to help out, that hasn't changed, and I really don't care how it turns out, I'm pretty optimistic that Stars will get to the bottom of it.

I'd be glad to answer any questions directed to me, in the thread or via PM.


RoSeeker, I think you appear shady as hell, your posts appear like you have something to hide and if Gary indeed is innocent, you hurt him bad here. I'll look forward to seeing if you answer my questions to you earlier.

if i was gary and stars was "looking into it" and i was innocent i wouldnt even care, i wouldnt even argue back i'd just laugh because their is nothing to argue... everyone reacts in diff ways tho so thats just me... not to say he is guilty or not guilty because from reading this thread i cant make a opinionated conclusion

Good idea. And I don't mean that maliciously. You have done this whole matter a great service but the more you go back-and-forth with mostly random goofs itt, the more you detract from all the great work you did.

how do you even have time to post when you gotz a BIZZZZZZNEZZZZZZZZZ to run