Wemby > Antman > Jordan > Lebron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread - Page 503 - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

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Wemby > Antman > Jordan > Lebron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

View Poll Results: GOAT?

labron

182 30.43%

MJ (Michael or Maple)

319 53.34%

Therapist

8 1.34%

George Mikan

5 0.84%

Shaq Attaq

21 3.51%

Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo)

13 2.17%

Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan

20 3.34%

"Roger Murdock"

3 0.50%

Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?)

9 1.51%

Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh)

18 3.01%

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04-22-2020 , 04:40 PM

#12551

All-inMcLovin

Wholesome Mod

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 49,960

Quote:

Originally Posted by trada7029

Yes, and when he went to NY, he apparently didn't realize that MJ/Kobe/Shaq were the ones executing the triangle.. this is somewhat similar to Krause's thinking, who thought he could build another juggernaut without MJ...

.. Human nature I guess..

Phil's strength was that players could tell he was smart and he wasn't a square.. he was a cool dude that had a genuine way of dealing with people and communicating that commanded respect.. guys knew they couldn't be fake with him or pull the wool over his eyes like you can with some coaches... he wasn't a punk like a lot of coaches are, and his players were loyal to him because of his likability and integrity

And MJ spent many years honing best practices and building a killer system where the role players could be interchangeable (only MJ/Pip were hold-overs from 1st three-peat).. so there's no way he wanted to build another system with another coach.. he was too old for that
.

He apparently didn't realize that?

You really believe that? Phil Jackson straight up phoned it in, cashed his checks, and made sure he got fired before his contract was up so he could go hangout on his Montana ranch. He alienated Porzingis, even relating him to Shawn Bradley (seriously WTF), and wanted him to be a SF (again seriously WTF).

Quote:

he was too old for that

So why did Jordan come back to play for the Wizards?

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04-22-2020 , 10:35 PM

#12552

All-inMcLovin

Wholesome Mod

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 49,960

I think LeBron could play until age 45 if he wanted to.

Quote

04-23-2020 , 07:06 AM

#12553

Tuma

Worships Amon-Ra

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 16,419

lebron could avg 15 asst/game at age 40 in the right system

Quote

04-23-2020 , 02:33 PM

#12554

All-inMcLovin

Wholesome Mod

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 49,960

twog,

you're like a broken record.

Do you have this content ready for copy/pasting? If not, you waste a lot of time typing it all out each time.

Quote

04-23-2020 , 03:47 PM

#12555

fidstar-poker

I'm gonna need a hacksaw

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 33,059

Twog won't answer where he rates LeBron because he's gutless.

Quote

04-23-2020 , 03:56 PM

#12556

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,213

I'd imagine he has him top 15 but not top 5.

Knows how that would be received and how it would detract from his MJ crusade so he keeps it on the qt.

Quote

04-23-2020 , 04:20 PM

#12557

bacalaopeace

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,881

Mj not even as good as KD

Quote

04-23-2020 , 04:52 PM

#12558

All-inMcLovin

Wholesome Mod

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 49,960

I have LeBron as #2 all time due to longevity, especially with what he's done this season at age 35.

Okay great he's not better than Jordan, but he's still really ****ing good and that should be acknowledged.

It'll be a crying shame if this season gets cancelled and LeBron misses out on a great opportunity for another ring to further cement his legacy.

Quote

04-23-2020 , 06:54 PM

#12559

Victor

banned

Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 73,070

Next season is shot too. That's why the Jordan Stan's are celebrating.

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04-23-2020 , 08:40 PM

#12560

VincentVega

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 9,647

Twd,

How many times do u need to repeat "averaged 25/5/5". Or " injured after 47 games". My god man

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04-23-2020 , 10:35 PM

#12561

Onlydo2days

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,461

If we were in 1996 and 97% of your networth was invested in Nike then I get the crusading, but we aren't and it likely isn't.

Jesus man, let it go. You've been at this online for like a decade.

Atleast comment on what I said about Stockton, mix it up a little.

Quote

04-24-2020 , 12:42 AM

#12562

Onlydo2days

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,461

If you are including guys like Harden, Curry then just include Giannis who is better than most of the list obviously.

Kawhi is up there as well.

Some of the modern post players would be better in previous eras where it was harder to play illegal D, why I hate comparing eras really.

And someone like AI would be better today.

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04-24-2020 , 01:08 AM

#12563

Onlydo2days

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,461

The reason the supporting casts in those eras have the lowest PPG is because from around 1992 to 2007 was the low scoring era of NBA history

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04-24-2020 , 01:31 AM

#12564

Onlydo2days

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,461

Quote:

Originally Posted by trada7029

Not 92'...

That started in 94'

And if it lasted until 2007, then there's 9 years (99-07') where other teams could've had weaker-scoring casts

But it's kind of hard to have a weaker-scoring cast than the bulls because MJ was the goat scorer with s goat margin over his 2nd option and cast...

Only MJ led his team in scoring for every series of his career, and by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over the 2nd option

No one said he wasn't, just not much of a metric to use when all the other teams on that list are from that time period as well for obvious reasons.

Even if someone comes along better than Jordan, he ain't getting on that list. And guys pre 1990s aren't on it either.

Last edited by Onlydo2days; 04-24-2020 at 01:37 AM.

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04-24-2020 , 01:34 AM

#12565

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,213

Quote:

Originally Posted by trada7029

Historically, high apg players don't win without the goat center or team-hopping for super-teams (and still mostly losing, thus making my point)... The only other exception is Isiah, who once won while getting 9 apg.. otherwise, the 5-7 apg style is optimal for ball movement and wins the most - Kawhi/KD/Dirk/MJ/Kobe/Bird are 19/24 in the Finals, versus 3/11 for Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, Nash, CP3, etc

^^^ that's why Lebron is 3/9.. ball-domination mostly loses to ball movement.. so it's a clash of styles and MJ's was superior (5-7 apg and high team assists, versus lebron's high apg and low team assists).. indeed, high apg is among the most overrated and misperceived stats in sports.

I hate to feed the TWOG AI, but: you should include Tony Parker and SA. You list Kawhi, but he won a single title there. Tony Parker was the actual point guard that played an attacking, yet move-the-ball style. Manu was the secondary guy that played a more playmaking style but def looked to score.

This is coming from a guy that tries to be Rubio at the Y fwiw.

One thing tho, where does Magic fit in your paradigm? You listed Bird, but ...

Quote

04-24-2020 , 01:41 AM

#12566

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,213

Oh, the goat center is how you hand-wave it off.

Were all of Magic's titles with old man Kareem? I know he won one when KAJ was out and he had to play there.

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04-24-2020 , 01:46 AM

#12567

Onlydo2days

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,461

All their titles were together but Magic played center to clinch the 1980 title because Kareem was hurt

https://www.basketball-reference.com...005160PHI.html (I'd imagine everyone was coked up for this 1)

Kareem was old in '87 and '88 though, a shell of himself when they beat the Celtics and Pistons

Then Magic made 2 more finals w/o him in '89 and '91

(one thing no one mentions when talking about conferences is that the east >>>>>>> west for the 80's, lakers basically had a free trip to the finals every year besides a frisky Rockets team in '86)

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04-24-2020 , 02:01 AM

#12568

Onlydo2days

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,461

I do think the MJ/LeBron argument will die down when LeBron retires though. It was always a current gen vs old school type debate (the reason no one is arguing for Wilt or even Kareem is because most of those people are dead or not posting on message boards)

People aren't going to care to debate it when we're talking two retired guys. Ali/Tyson debate used to be all the rage, then once Tyson lost to Holyfield and faded to a different point in his career, no one really cared anymore.

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04-24-2020 , 02:09 AM

#12569

DodgerIrish

Fraudulent Zodiac

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28,213

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onlydo2days

(one thing no one mentions when talking about conferences is that the east >>>>>>> west for the 80's, lakers basically had a free trip to the finals every year besides a frisky Rockets team in '86)

Like Bron in the East. Indy was watev with Hibbert and Lance playing big roles.

The Magic and Bron comp's strengthen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onlydo2days

Or it'll be like DiMaggio or Mantle in their day vs Ruth.

Recency bias vs the GOAT: one fades.

There's also a clear divide between 5's and the rest imo. Two different categories. I've argued for Wilt as the GOAT big but it's apples and oranges.

Quote

04-24-2020 , 05:33 AM

#12570

All-inMcLovin

Wholesome Mod

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 49,960

Quote:

Originally Posted by trada7029

Of course i copy paste... But this part is original:

22-year old Lebron made the Finals, while 22-year MJ lost in the 1st Round because only juggernauts won the East in the 80's - weak teams like the 01' Sixers, 03' Nets, 07' Cavs, or 09' Magic weren't winning the East back then - Bird needed 3 HOF teammates to win the 80's East.... ditto Dr J.... Isiah needed a starting 5 that were all 3x all-stars or better (Dumars, Isiah, Rodman, Laimbeer, Aguirre.. edit: Rodman was 2x all-star and 2x dpoy)

Ultimately, people first started calling MJ the goat after he 3-peated, which was a substantive body of work clearly superior to Bird or Magic's top accomplishment.

Otoh. lebron has no substantive body of work that is superior (okay, now copy paste coming.. 3.. 2..1)... he won 8 straight conference finals only AFTER his "decision" formed a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning - aka Dwight, AI, Kidd, and 07' Lebron all won the East with weak casts, so it's no surprise that a strong team had a winning streak.. Ultimately, Lebron couldn't win the East in 09/10, so he stacked the deck from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs

All the arguments fit together, so copy paste makes sense
.

Wow, these are my thoughts on this:

Spoiler:

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04-24-2020 , 11:52 AM

#12571

bacalaopeace

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,881

Giannis is better than jordan. Whole league has improved a lot.

Quote

04-24-2020 , 12:51 PM

#12572

Matt R.

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacalaopeace

Giannis is better than jordan. Whole league has improved a lot.

Oh you.

Is the best high school player in the world today better than Wilt because "basketball improves"? Is there some type of statistical analysis you're performing that adjusts current player ability to players 20-30 years ago? How do we know if Kareem or JaVale McGee is better? Can't we just wave the magic "basketball improves" wand and say JaVale?

Is Giannis better than prime LeBron? Serious question: remember basketball has improved, and LeBron's prime was ~10+ years ago. So I guess that means the current best player in the league is always the best player of all time, right? (doesn't that sound ******ed to you just on its surface?)

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04-24-2020 , 01:14 PM

#12573

SABR42

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,161

I like how twogtroll has LeBron below Magic Johnson when LeBron is literally what you get if you took Magic and made him athletically far superior while retaining Magic's passing ability and basketball IQ.