Except wilt was in fact bigger, stronger, more athletic, and more skilled than Shaq.

Steph was known as Dell back then.

Yeah Durant averaged 35 in that finals. Not bad! Jordan averaged almost that for his entire playoff career. He averaged 41 a game one finals.

I mean, that's great and all, but those are just words. You're pretending the '96 Bulls were the '85 Bulls with Jordan chucking shots. These are teams with strategies and players interacting. The '96 Bulls were one of the greatest offenses ever. Jordan played largely off the ball (unlike LeBron), so swarming him with 3 guys probably isn't going to work too well. The triangle offense they ran worked pretty ok for them since they won those 6 rings and stuff.

When you say "Durant crushes", you're acting like he's gonna score 50 a night. He won't. He scored around Jordan's career average when he "crushed" the Cavs. And the next year, the Rockets took them to 7 games with an injured Chris Paul. Why didn't they just shoot 100% from 3 that series and Durant score 60? Oh right because they can't. The other team is on the court too.

You're conflating assists with being a good passer. Rodman's teammates and Phil Jackson said he was a great passer in that offense. Sometimes passing is about putting pressure on the defense and facilitating plays rather than racking up assist numbers. And lol at the Draymond Green comparison. They played ENTIRELY different roles in entirely different offenses.

Rodman was one of the greatest rebounders ever. And likely the best rebounder ever by a wide margin. And if you're including offensive rebounds as part of offense (you should), he was hugely valuable on offense. Those are equivalent to extra possessions.

The Bulls offensive rebounding % that year was 36.9%. This was largely due to Rodman. The '17 Warriors? 22.8%. Slight advantage there. Maybe more so than Durant's 35 ppg lol which Jordan likely crushes anyway.

You don't get to 72 wins, one of history's GOAT offenses, and 3 straight rings by playing 4 on 5. Rodman crushes Draymond overall.

Rodman 100% gets Draymond ejected. Maybe Durant too

I think Stockton and Nash are close to equal overall bc Nash is so porous defensively.

You said "pure pg" and Nash is very much that on offense (which is what a pure pg is about).

Agreed.

It's more of the fact that a shooting point is preferable to a pure point in most cases (exception being point forwards).

This has been hard for me to admit but the facts are the facts. Rubio is one of my favorite players and he's very much a pure point guard, even moreso bc a pure point can be something of a backhanded compliment in most of it's applications. Kendall Marshall was a pure point guard, for example.

One of these is not like the other. Stockton did not have to penetrate on his own, he had Karl Malone setting picks for him.

Payton was the one who had to gets shots off: Payton averaged 14 shots per game for his career (14.3/36), Stockton was 9.1 (10.3/36).

Payton had 2 years where he averaged over 20 fga/g and four additionally over 18 fga/g. Stockton's career high season was 11.9.

When Payton was at his 6-7 year peak, he was shooting nearly double what Stockton was.

Payton had the clear edge in athleticism and speed: Stockton was drafted 16th (similar to Nash who was 15), Payton was drafted 2nd overall.

Payton was the superior defender: 9x 1st Team All Defense, 96 DPOY. Stockton 5x 2nd Team All Defense

Distance shooting is Stockton's main edge, but he wouldn't do so at high volume. The other thing would be Stockton's Steady Eddy longevity. He averaged 9.5 fga/g at age 39, 7.8 at 40.

Career accolades are very similar:

Stockton 10x AS
Payton 9x AS

All NBA
Stockton 2x 1st, 6x 2nd, 3x 3rd
Payton 2x 1st, 5x 2nd, 2x 3rd + DPOY

Both won 2 Golds in their 2 Olympic appearances (teammates in '96).

Payton is a champ but as a role player, so that doesn't factor in.

This is just a comp between the two, neither is the GOAT point guard: That's Chris Paul.

Pippen on Durant
Jordan on Klay
Rodman on Green
Harper on steph .

No hand check Jordan 40ppg+ easy .

How can a guy like Jason Kidd at 37 still plays in the nba and beats Lebron .
You are saying he was better at 37 than when he plays during jordan era while younger ?

That narrative thinking 90 were bad players , I mean Shaq was playing at that period , you think he would of suck on todays nba 0o ?
Give me a break !

Ps:Jordan was still able to make 20ppg at 40 years old in early 2000 period vs guys 15 years younger ...

With modern rules the entire Warriors team can defend Jordan, which you weren't allowed to do in the 90's.

LOL at thinking no hand-check benefits Jordan.

This is so narrow minded and short sighted that it’s unbelievable. First lol at Jason Kidd beating Lebron James.

Players are obviously much better in their respective primes than they are in their last few years in the league. The 3 players you are referring to have a higher baseline of talent than 99% of the players in the league. Kidd is probably considered a top 10-12 pg of all time, Shaq a top 10-15 player of all time and MJ the greatest player of all time. Of course they could play and succeed in many eras.

Rank the point guards

Stockton
Payton
Thomas
Kidd
CP3
Nash

It's so team dependent. Not the answer your looking for I know, but I'm probably one of the biggest cp3 haters on the board. I think he dribbles too much, isolates too much, and is an all around *****.

Nash>Stockton > Kidd>cp3>payton>Thomas. All super close but I take nash to lead my offense all day and settle for having slightly less on offense in other spots and better defense instead. Stockton and kidd were very similar players in their prime from what I remember (I'm 34).

Edit: Payton and Paul could be switched for me. The glove man

Isiah is the tough one because he played in a diff era.

His accomplishments:
2x Champ (1 Finals MVP)
12x AS (2x MVP during era of Magic, Bird, and MJ)
3x 1st Team All NBA
2x 2nd Team ''
Member of Top 50 team at the 50 year anniversary

It was a diff era where he never shot 3s, his prime was the 80s. He was a bigger Iverson with more of a team-focused style. He was the 2nd pick in the draft as an underclassman (sophmore) when only the elite of the elite were coming out that early. Magic came out as a soph also while Bird and MJ played 3 seasons in college.

I'd like to exclude him and/or assume he'd get more of a 3 point shot, but maybe he's like Wade where it's just not there.

Judging them individually as players for a few year peak (as opposed to career accolades) I go:

CP3
Payton
Kidd
Nash
Isiah
Stockton

I was waffling bc I'm sure I'll get flamed by having Stockton where I do. After I made my list I looked up a few thing to crosscheck. H2H matchups mainly, but I did find this that I agreed with:

https://sportsh2h.com/h2h-49-john-st...ho-was-better/

Kidd and Payton were more similar as 6'4 do everything point guards. Kidd the better passer, Payton the better scorer.

I think they're pretty close defensively bc Kidd had more girth to guard up.

Who’s stopping Jordan if you can’t touch him ?
Jordan got double teammates all his career , you think it would change anything now ?
can’t even touch him while you could in his era ...

One thing w/ Nash to consider, he wasn't really amazing until he got under Mike D. He was an AS with Dallas but wasn't anything like what he was in Phoenix.

I was thinking it might be a little like Brady with Belichick where it's hard to differentiate the two. But one difference is we have the benefit of time. We've seen how James Harden has similarly jumped up a few levels under him. And remember I mentioned Kendall Marshall, who is that right? Well he averaged 8.8 assists per game in 2013-14 in 54 games with the Lakers! He was at 11.0/36 and was out of the league not long after. Mike had Raymond Felton getting 9.0 assists a game!

The dude was a point guard and knows what he's doing offensively ldo.

Stockton
CP3
Payton
Kidd
Nash

Thomas

Isiah was a hell of a player, but not at the same level as the rest of those. And he played on a hell of a good team.

Stockton was the best defender of the lot, a shade tougher than GP or CP3 who were also superb. Those three are three of the best defenders ever, whatever position. Kidd and Nash were clearly weaker in this sense. On the offensive end Stockton and CP3 clearly the best, Kidd next, GP a shade below Kidd (more of a scorer, less of a passer), and Nash fifth best there too.

Stockton made Malone, not the other way around. Stockton could have scored as much as GP if the system had demanded it.

Old school pure pg is a dead position in today's NBA. Ricky Rubio is the only guy playing who fits the profile from back then.

On the other hand, Mark Price is a guy from back then who would be a mega star now.

Best peak or best career?

Peak I got CP3 as the clear #1. He was on a different tier before he hurt his knee. He was still super young at the time too. Scary what he coulda been.

2. Stockton
3. Gary Payton (for his defense)
4. Jason Kidd
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Steve Nash (for his defense; but the opposite way)

I think 2-6 are nearly equivalent on the offensive end. Huge disparity in defense though. Stockton 2 because of how well rounded he is and longevity. Nash 6 because amazing offense but terrible defense. Kidd above Isiah because of better defense and longevity.

I've seen nash courtside I dunno if you ever have but the dude was almost as tall as vince Carter (they were playing together at the time). I dont know if Carter is shorter than listed , I think hes 6'6 as listed but I'd guess nash is about 6'3. I just dont recall him being a massive liability on defense. Against elite guards, sure hes not great but that's why they are elite. Non scoring guards didnt just become all stars while he was guarding them. All from memory of course.

Honestly that list is very difficult to rank. Those are all hall of fame players.

Wtf. Never realized Jason Kidd had 5x all-nba first team selections. Gary Payton only 2x. That doesn't seem right.

All 5 were post Chicago MJ.

GP too but he was drafted 4 years earlier so slots opened at the end of his prime.

Looks like Penny cockblocked him for a couple years also. Bad timing for GP basically.

There were a lot of great guards in the 90s. Payton was always considered second tier. Correcting myself from above. Carter looked at most 2 inches taller than nash when I saw them. Whatever

Lol @ the hate for Isaiah Thomas in this thread. Only player on the list to be the best player on their respective team and win a championship. Only player on the list to win multiple NBA championships. Only player to win a NCAA championship. And people have him ranked last.

Thomas
Stockton
Kidd
Nash
Payton
Cp3

Is the correct order

Stockton
Cp3
Thomas
Nash
Payton
Kidd

for me.

God you're dumb. In Jordan's era you couldn't play zone and couldn't sag off your man. If you committed to a double team you have to leave a guy open.

You defend Jordan with your whole team and force him into tough looks. Team defense > lol handcheck.

seems like this rule was not tightly enforced.



just in the first minute of this video and in every single play there is a second and third defender that is not committed to the double and then comes over to help in the middle of Jordan driving.