We're talking about the Finals and the supporting cast Lebron had. I don't know if you're following this but apparently according to some MJ-stans, Lebron would've easily beat the Warriors had a couple of other things gone his way and I'm reminding them that MJ + that kind of supporting cast wouldn't be good enough to get to the playoffs, let alone sweep the 60-win Hawks or put up a competitive series against the 67-win Warriors, with some grumbling that he almost had enough to win. The point is that there are levels to this: Winning a championship > Getting to the Finals > Getting to the Conference Finals, Getting to the second round of the playoffs > Making the playoffs. The very expectation that Lebron should have won the championship with that squad is tantamount to a concession that Lebron is the GOAT. Lebron is the only player in the history of the game where he could be put in that situation and have everyone else think - you know what, he has a shot. MJ + Lebron's supporting cast in the Finals is not only not beating the Warriors, but it wouldn't even be an average team.

If you’re talking about the finals then why did you say Jordan wouldn’t have even sniffed the playoffs with that roster, yet the roster LeBron made the playoffs with had Kyrie and Love who both played 6 more games than LeBron? Seems rather dishonest and deliberately misleading. Which is your style of debating so yeah it’s totally expected.

If you’re talking about the roster for only the finals then it’s probably important to note LeBron lost in the finals in 6 games. Given that’s an elite accomplishment for him in a career where he has inferior peak stats to Jordan and 2 fewer rings (in more seasons played, and counting) I can see why you have to deliberately mislead.

How about you post the starting lineup of that 60 win elite Hawks team LeBron swept? Lololol

The point isn't that Lebron made the playoffs. The point is about the caliber of basketball people expect out of Lebron + trash and that the expectations are absurdly high (because Lebron's done this sort of thing rather consistently). Lebron is expected to do something that are multiple levels beyond what MJ, even in our best estimation, would be able to do. Again, I don't personally think much of Lebron's loss here - he's done this his entire career - but the point is that MJ-stans are the ones here talking about how Lebron could've done just a little more and they should've won. That makes me it clear to me that even they think Lebron is the GOAT - they just haven't worked out the cognitive dissonance.

Hell, I’ll post it because we all know candbar won’t and will just give his monumentally biased narrative and keep quoting 60 wins. That elite Hawks team that LeBron beat (and well, Kyrie who played in 2 games and JR Smith and TT who played very well):

Jeff Teague
Paul Millsap
Al Harford
Kent Bazemore
DeMarre Carroll

Jeff Teague was their best player in that series by a wide margin. Using the same metric you used to fellate LeBron to “show” his supporting cast sucks:

Jeff Teague, their best player in the series, had a career BPM of 0.6. Yeah, great job LeBron.

No wonder such a mediocre player (relative to Jordan, I mean) did so well playing in an Eastern conference that was that ****ing terrible but then almost always got trounced in the finals. And only has 4 rings in a career full of superteam hopping. Makes perfect sense when you look at all the facts in an unbiased way.

This kind of stuff puts candybar’s claims of Jordan fans being unbalanced and biased in their arguments in its full scale hilarious spectacle of stupid. Candybar is a clown show circus act of psychological projection.

This is idiotic and makes no sense. LeBron should have done more in his CAREER if he is indeed the GOAT. Like for example not losing twice in the finals on that Miami superteam. Or lose to the Magic and Celtics in the **** east when he had the superior team. Or have better stats than Jordan, if he was actually better than Jordan. You know, facts that you use to evaluate players. Not BS narratives that LeBron carried a team with Kyrie and Love to the playoffs then pretending they weren’t actually on the team.

This is supposed to be bad? That's two solid consistently top-30 players at their best (Millsap and Horford) plus another player that was all-star that season (Jeff Teague) who had a couple of more above-average seasons after this. That's before we get to Kyle Korver who was an all-starter and started two games (played 20 more minutes than Kyrie Irving). I mean they won 60 games with this team - Kyle Korver was the only major injury and he was their 4th best player. DeMarre Carroll was a solid 3&D wing that got a 60/4 contract after that season (whether he was that good or someone else, perhaps Bud, made him look good is immaterial given that that someone else is also part of the team), Kent Bazemore has the best on/off #s of anyone on the Warriors at age 31. Is your point that Mike Bud is a great coach? Perhaps they are not as talented as some other 60-win teams, but whatever made them overachieve was still part of the team and didn't disappear overnight. They made the ECF after all.

I mean, weren't the Jazz supposed to be MJ's best Finals opponent or something? Their top 5 players in terms of minutes in 98 Finals were:

A 34-year old Malone
A 35-year old Stockton
A 34-year old Hornacek
Bryon Russell
Shandon Anderson

No offense but that's a pretty sorry collection of players - that team is not making the playoffs in the current NBA. They were probably slightly better relative to the era (keep in mind, this was an expansion era, so the talent level on a per-team level was pretty low) than the Hawks but it's important to understand not all eras are equal.

Jordan GOAT because individual scoring is the only stat that matters

candybar,
Why do you take the career BPM of LeBron’s teammates to show they were “bad”, then take the peak BPM of LeBron’s opponents to show they were “good”, then claim the ‘98 Jazz were Jordan’s best finals opponent (when they clearly weren’t, and likely were their second worst or worst opponent), and then ignore the fact that the ‘98 Jazz team still had 3 elite players and won 62 games (and focus on their age instead)?

Seems like a systematically biased and idiotic way to look at things. Like if you’re going to apply an analysis method in one situation you need to apply it equally in another, because if you do it one way to make LeBron or his opponents look good but then switch it up to make LeBron’s teammates look bad (implying LeBron carried them) and then apply it again in another totally opposite way to make Jordan look worse it makes you look either like a total idiot, totally crazy, or a total LeBron Stan. Pick one or a combination.

Yes, candybar wrote the above post. And then makes the arguments he makes for LeBron as seen a few posts up. Yes he is from Jupiter and this is in fact the Twilight Zone for LeBron stans who have no self awareness.

Jesus Christ

While I do agree that the then-current BPM of the players (or maybe a 3 year range in that area) should be used over career for the purposes of the evaluation in question, it doesn’t make too much of a difference in this case. Those guys on the Cavs all still were fairly horrific by all metrics. JR is the only guy who ever was even a low end starter without LBJ, and he was on the decline before he was dealt. The career BPM does matter a little bit for evaluation of how playing with LBJ helped guys statistically (JR being the biggest beneficiary), but yes, how 37 year old JR played the last 2 years or whatever isn’t too relevant to how good he was in 2015.

I think the Hawks were similar to the Raptors teams that LeBron faced in that while they weren’t super elite, they were very good teams (IIRC they had decent records against the Western Conference and always had strong regular season metrics) but they really always lacked size and wing defenders to throw at LBJ and he would always utterly torch them. I imagine it became psychological after awhile too. I don’t think those teams were enormously bad or anything though. They match up talent-wise with other weak Finals teams or decent to good conference finals teams. Looking at the 1998 Pacers who nearly upset the Bulls, I’d definitely take the Hawks squad over them. That Pacers team was an older Reggie and a bunch of low end starters or good role players.

Someone can apply career, peak, average over a time window, or whatever else however they want (tho some methods are better than others at times). It’s when you do it one way to favor one player than an entirely different way to make another look worse that it becomes insane. Then to make a post calling out the opposite side for doing that makes it seem like candybar is either arguing in bad faith or certifiable.

You and I remember that ‘98 Pacers team very differently. Reggie was 32 and still right at the tail end of his prime. Then you have the Davises, Smits, Mullin, Mark Jackson, a young Jalen Rose. I thought they were way more likely to beat the Bulls that year (given their age and injury problems at the time) than the Jazz. Grew up around Pacers fans and they were pissed they lost that year.

Matt R and 3ball just slaying it in this thread.

Few things I want to add as a Bron Bron player hater too

1) Despicable scumbag coach killer gave the 1-2 teddy to multiple well regarded coaches including Spo and Blatt.
2) Frontrunner has quit on his team multiple times decades apart

3) Results are all that matter in the end but it must be added he is the biggest luckbox in the history of championship sports other than maybe Eli Manning. If you throw in the nadir of his win probability in the Ray Allen Series, the GS Series (with him flopping like a coward and getting Draymond banned), and then him scumbagging it up last year with his team holding secret against the law practices on a billionaire's private court..... plus him winning a chip in the lockout season with super athletic pressing teammates. And handpicking the Heatles team. What a travesty of justice. This proves life isn't fair.

You could argue he is so clutch and omnipotent blah blah that he got them out of these 2% equity holes but I don't think there's a clutch gene that lets you luckbox like this. Otherwise he'd be 6/6.

4) He's left behind smoldering wreckages everywhere he's gone because he handpicks a puppet coach, puppet GM, and then gives out deals to the players he picks. He is a franchise savior but even more a franchise killer.

5) He's emasculated multiple all-pro teammates of his including Bosh and KLove. You can argue that he's killed multiple careers due to his selfish stat padding type of basketball. Nobody wants to play with him except impressionable sorts who have never won like AD. People try to say his teams were replacement level after he left but I think they suffer large dents to confidence/ability due to playing with him.

6) Most of this is tongue in cheek I've hated on him for a while now since he just coincides with a lot of guys I like. But no way he's the GOAT with all of the stains on his record. He has a weak argument due to rate stats and longevity but Jordan also has the Ali/Tyson type mystique factor, the legacy, the Jordan brand, Space Jam and pop culture, higher peak and more. One day the nooblords will try to paint him as the greatest but true torch bearers like Matt R. will always remember. Another thing about this bullshit era is people who clear out of the way so stat padders like Bron and RWB can grab all the ballboards. I guarantee you Jordan could have easy +1-+2'ed his ballboards if he was the diva prima donna that Bron is. And you can't bring up TS% from the 90's and try to compare those to this era. Curry the GOAT.

Also I think the argument 3ball and Kenny Smith brought up about Jordan always being the #1 option and never being able to take a day off or have a teammate absorb the coverage is very on point.

I take offense at how bad this post is. What I'm wondering is if you're being disingenuous or you actually do believe this nonsense. You're picking borderline top 30 players versus two of the top 30 players all time putting up near peak level seasons?!

Malone BPM 7.3 one of the better seasons of all time. In the top players of all time.
Stockin BPM 5.6. In the top PGS of all time.
Hornacek BPM 3.7 basically half of a HOFer

One of the best coaches of all time with very long tenure and a very clear identity. +EV grinders to fill out the rotation. The weak ass Hawks couldn't bang with these Jazz. All of Lebron's competition during that East run was just withered beyond belief. And as soon as it got tough he bailed. And then as soon as that got tough he bailed again. And then as soon as that got tough he bailed again.

Yeah you can't really argue with candybar ITT (lol at the TS% post) but all of the arguments are tangential anyways. Really it comes down to who is the greatest. And for the toppest of ICONs you also measure their off the court legacy and Jordan is near top top in this regard. It's impossible to pick LeBron right now. He doesn't even have a higher peak despite cherry picking and stat padding in a softer era. It's like picking Floyd Mayweather against Sugar Ray or Tyson Fury against Ali. You have to basically have a perfect career front to back like Trout, with at least 80% playoff success and not multiple chokejobs PLUS intangibles, to beat out the iconic GOATS like Jordan.

Im on record itt...Jordan was goat until lebron carried his team vs a goat warriors team. keep in mind i'm in the "jordan 4goat" age demo (old). But I'm not blind. he is 6'9" 260lbs monster. Eyes in the back of his head. 4th ring and stronger than ever.

That’s fine and all, and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. But,

- how do you decide one 7 game series overrides the entirety of the rest of two players’ careers?
- Kyrie had an excellent series too and wasn’t that far behind LeBron in productivity. Tristan Thomas played well too. How do you go from LeBron playing great to discounting the rest of his team for the victory? I mean Kyrie definitely outplayed Curry that series and yet somehow you think LeBron did it all. Explain that if you’re not a LeBron Stan?
- Jordan in the ‘93 finals pretty much objectively played better than LeBron in the ‘16 finals. And the gap between him and Pippen was quite a bit more than LeBron and Kyrie. Did Jordan or did Jordan not carry his team in that finals? If so why aren’t you counting it? (Most people realize Jordan basically ALWAYS carried his team. And got 6 rings out of them. No superteam hopping. What makes you disregard this?)
- do you think the Warriors in 2016 were better in the regular season or finals? What about their injuries and suspensions and how do you think that affected them?

Mostly curious how you flipped off the results of 1 series. The 3rd ring no less. Not like it was ring 7 or 8.

That warriors team won 73 games iirc. Nobody lifted a team like that. It was a performance for the ages. Put him over the top in my mind. Since then, he has only confirmed his goatness.

keep in mind i thought lebron was a bit weak minded early in his career. "a choker." and i was the county's player of the week jordans rookie year. saw him all the way. emulated his dunks. I'm no slurper. but cmon...we have eyes. jordan was 220. lebron is 270. you can bench 220 for reps as an average weight lifter. your alltime max isnt 270. mine is 265. 270 is heavy.

YugiohPro takes the dumbest poster ITT title from 3ball/twog after like 15 years. Wow. Impressive stuff.

“Coach killer” David Blatt “well regarded” “franchise killer”

Baron Davis and Dwight Howard beat 66-win teams but Jordan never did.

So are they better than Jordan too?

Accordingly, beating a 73-win team isn't a good argument for being better than Jordan.

Otoh, Jordan has arguments that are singular to him, and therefore goat - specifically, Jordan has the most rings as the best player in 3-pointer basketball history/modern era.. He also has the best production rate ever, aka stats (PER, BPM, WS/48, PPG, and the best VORP seasons)... He was also the only perennial scoring champ and 1st team defender (the only guy that was always at the top level on both sides of the ball).. These are goat arguments because only MJ can make them.



What if Rik Smits (2nd option) outplayed Shaq in the 2000 Finals - would Reggie Miller get credit for a goat accomplishment by winning that series?

What if KJ outplayed MJ in the 93' Finals - would Barkley get credit for a goat accomplishment?

You can do this with any Finals... What if Kenyon outplayed Duncan in the 03' Finals - would Kidd get credit for a goat accomplishment?..

So why does Lebron get credit in 2016?

It's impossible to lose when your 2nd option is destroying the opposing 1st option, so Lebron deserves blame for needing 7 games given how great Kyrie was (it's historic for a 2nd option to outplay the league MVP in the Finals) - the only reason the Cavs needed 7 was because Lebron wet the bed thru 4 (24 and 6 TO's).

It's a classic case of overrating, aka "he mostly loses, so lets over-celebrate the 1 time he wins"...

He led 5 categories, but he had an equal-scoring partner and therefore shared the load.. His 30/11/9 with an equal scoring partner and "just trying to win 1" expectation/attitude is a low bar compared to Jordan's 41/9/6 with all eyes on him (no equal-partner) and the "win everytime" burden/expectation...

We should praise Jordan for achieving the dominant position and winning expectation, but instead Lebron is praised for achieving weaker teams and underdog status, with a "just trying to win 1" low bar expectation.. aka he's praised for losing by lionizing it into "he's such an underdog wow".. it's bizarro world



Ultimately, Lebron should've had dominant dynasties with his super-teams and instead had whimpering underdogs (and barely met those underdog expectations, aka 4/10).. Heck, he had the Curry-killer but lost to KD by record amount, while harden and the pre-kawhi clippers were competitive.. this also happened in 2014 when Dirk's 8-seeded Mavs nearly beat the Spurs, while Lebron's super-team was beaten by record amount..

Lebron's weak brand of ball (ball-dominance) simply doesn't get the most out of teams - it needs excessive talent to contend and still mostly loses - anytime Lebron didn't have a super-team, he was blown away by championship comp.. (edit: 26 on 35% in the 2008 ECSF.. Cavs defense kept them competitive).
.

PREACH!

London System strategy levels itt by anatta!

Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant are both way bigger than 270. Can they beat Jordan and LeBron 2 on 2? C’mon man, basketball is a skill game and quickness and agility matter just as much, if not more, than weight.

And did Kyrie’s performance in that finals lift him in the GOAT point guard list for you? Did he ascend above Curry? Or was LeBron the only one affected? (Since you’ve said yourself you’re not a LeBron stan, and we believe you, then wondering how your view was affected by Kyrie’s amazing performance or even Tristan Thomas playing way above his norm)

LeBron's mere presence on the court allowed Kyrie to play at the level he did.

Same for Tristan.