Yeah but the 3 ball might still beat Jordan.

Also I don't think there is a team in the league you could put lebron on that would win it all, except maybe San Antonio.
The spacing is set up for the 3 ball.

I still wouldn't bet against Jordan, it's the intangibles I've talked about before, I think Jordan just finds ways to win.
He's almost like a great poker player, he finds your weakness and goes for the jugular, then he takes his weakness and turns it into a strength.

This stuff is just hilarious.

Un-provable and straight narrative.

And only applies when he wins it all.

I try to state facts, often STATISTICAL facts, that some people aren't aware of, like this:


Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



..................................................APG, ASSIST %..... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6, 34.8%..................29.2% <-- links to bballref data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7, 25.5%..................40.3%

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8, 33.2%..................31.9%
Irving with... Lebron.. (15'-17'):.. 5.3, 27.1%..................32.7%

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2, 10.5%..................55.8%
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6, 8.0% ...................71.6%

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5, 13.0%..................62.7%
Love with ...Lebron (15'-17'):...... 2.2, 11.0%..................77.9%

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7, 30.2%..................39.2%
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6, 22.3%..................47.6%



Since teammates get less assists alongside lebron, his teams rank low in assists every year, therefore requiring excessive supporting talent to win (aka team-hopping).

Let's look at the real-life example: Kobe won 2 rings with Pau as 2nd option, whereas Lebron reduced All-NBA Love and Bosh into weak 3rd options, and needed a perimeter stud (Wade/Kyrie) to be 2nd option - Lebron simply needed more help to overcome the reduction of his PF, whereas Kobe did not.

Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented)..

Now why does lebron lower his teammates' assists, while increasing their assisted rate, effectively turning the all-stars listed above into play-finishers?.. Lebron scores like a point guard: that means ON HIS OWN via live dribble, and therefore unassisted by teammates, while using a high time of possession.. This point guard style (low assisted rate, high time of possession) is inherently suboptimal when it comes from the forward position: it adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player to the floor IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession..

Ultimately, the stats prove that teammates have less time with the ball alongside Lebron than other supporting casts, because Lebron reduces the time available for them by turning the forward position into a 2nd point guard.. Using 2 point guards leads to a weak brand of basketball, poor teamwork, and ultimately, underperformance in the playoffs.


FYI...


..................................................APG, ASSIST %

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5, 24.5%
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4, 23.7%
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8, 25.1%



In contrast to Lebron's ball-dominance, jordan was a good catch-and-shoot player, while also scoring a lot of points via slashing and quick moves from the triple-threat.. This type of off-ball scoring is ASSISTED, so it promotes playmaking from teammates and team assists, while also fitting into any structured, high-level offense..

Good teamwork is why jordan's teammates played to full capacity alongside him, which means the TEAM played to full capacity and virtually never underachieved, lost as the favorite, or lost when it was 50/50.. otoh, lebron's lesser teamwork has prevented teammates from playing to full capacity, which has led to team underperformance like losing as the favorite and losing when it was 50/50.. the goat should never lose as the favorite, or when it's 50/50.. certainly, being the goat should break any tie

You add a great passer and other passers passing #s drop a little. Let me guess, if you add another scorer to a team of scorers, their PPG will drop too.

Why do you copy and paste this **** to multiple message board?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=437047

No one follows your crap there too.

Are you Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson.

Your analysis is great. If I was on the Lebron side( which I'm not, thank god) I would be speechless.

You could post stuff like this too if Lebron was the GOAT

Because it's the truth, gotta state the facts yo!!!

I wouldn't dare post this crap because it not only doesn't make sense it's easily proved that it's really wrong. I'm glad you think you're making great points.

Prove it wrong then. You just said it's easy, do it !!

Let's see. Jordan LOST IN THE PLAYOFFS, OVER AND OVER AND OVER until he didn't. All of a sudden, when his team is good enough he WINS IT ALL. Till he and his team isn't good enough and they lose in the playoffs between winning ALL THOSE TITLES. Like it's not just about JORDAN HAVING SOME BULL**** WILL TO WIN; when his teams are really good he wins it all, when they aren't or if he isn't good enough they don't. BUT ZOMG HE JUST FINDS A WAY TO WIN AND HE TURNS WEAKNESSES INTO STRENGTHS. LOL. Like are you 5?

Capone=SHOOK

This is a top 5 dumbest post in the entire thread.

LMAO!!!!

All I heard was "ALL THOSE TITLES "

The rest was wahwahwahwahwahwahwah!!!

Why do you like lebron so much?

Let me guess you also choose Peyton Manning over Tom Brady?

Still waiting for 609 to admit that Jordan was "remarkably bad" against the Sonics. It's not actually possible for him to say otherwise after he labeled stuff LeBron did as "remarkably bad" when he played better than MJ did in that series.

He just didn't answer the post.

And that's why he will never win an argument on any subject. You need to admit failings if people are to believe you. Even MJ did an advert on all the times he failed.

It's time for you to admit MJ was "remarkably bad".

He may be wrong on that "one" argument, but you have to admit 609 has made many great post in the thread. As a whole he has made the Lebron supporters look ridiculous.
I think you guys should call a truths.
You admit this and he admits that lol

Also could you tell Capone to give up already. You seem to be the voice of reasoning in this thread.

No.. You're forgetting that Lebron's Heat didn't have worse talent than the 2014 Spurs, so their record margin of defeat reflected the difference in teamwork between the 2 teams.. So Lebron's stats were a function of the worst teamwork ever in the Finals.

Obviously, his empty stats while having a basketball clinic run on his team aren't better than MJ's in 1996 Finals.. Jordan's stats were obtained while playing winning basketball and literally goat teamwork - he didn't sacrifice teamwork to get his stats.. Remember, Lebron's team didn't get beat by better talent, only better teamwork.

To put the 2014 Finals in perspective, Lebron was less competitive and played worse basketball with his champion Heat, than Jordan did with his 30-win Bulls in 86' 1st Round.. Jordan's Bulls were closer to the Celtics in ortg and ppg than Lebron's Heat were to the Spurs.. That's how HORRIBLE Lebron's teamwork was


Lebron didn't outplay MJ - you're making that up

Jordan averaged 31 ppg on 46% through 3 games, and then had a bad Game 4 when they were up 3-0... But in the locker room before the bad Game 4, Jordan told a reporter that he was "more relaxed than he'd ever been in the Finals" (here's the video).. So that game was similar to the Warriors in Game 4 this year, when they relaxed with 3-0 lead and got their doors blown off in Cleveland.

Then in Game 5, Jordan shot 9-18 for 26 points...

Then in Game 6, he led the team with 22/9/7, while holding held Hawkins to 4 points, or 12 points below his average.. This is significant because the Bulls WON by 12 and everyone else let their man go off - Schrempf destroyed Pippen for 23 points on 59%.. Payton destroyed Harper for 21 points on 70%.. and Kemp destroyed Rodman for 18/10 on 47%..

So Jordan holding down Hawkins was the difference - contrast that with Lebron letting his man get FMVP 3 times, including a 7 ppg role player that got nearly 10 points above his average.

Btw, the youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown in gifs here.. So Jordan was attracting double-teams that freed up teammates - otoh, the Spurs didn't double Lebron in 2014 Finals.. So again, emtpy stats for Lebron.


Jordan was great in 96' Finals, even though it was one of his worst 2 playoff series statistically.

But Lebron has FAR more series with sub-par stats:

Lebron 2007 ECSF:. 24.7 on 42.3%

Lebron 2007 Finals:. 22.0 on 35.6%

Lebron 2008 ECSF:. 26.7 on 35.5%

Lebron 2011 Finals:. 17.8 on 47.8%

Lebron 2013 ECSF:. 23.8 on 43.8%

Lebron 2014 ECF:. 22.8 on 55.9%

Lebron 2016 1st Rd:. 22.8 on 48.7%

How does he win the ECF easily while averaging 22.8 ppg?...

oh wait.. he had a super-team.. 2 all-stars teammates, and ray allen as 4th option.. smh
.

I'll probably get laughed at for saying this, but Pau was a better basketball player than Kobe, so it may be fairer to say that Shaq and Pau won titles with Kobe as supporting cast (ala Wade).

Talk about shifting to create a narrative.

right. wade plays like crap and ofc its lebrons fault. flawless logic itt.

and that post about "play-finishing" may be the dumbest thing itt. we have a new contender.

come quick montreal, you need to gain your crown back.

lol

So MJ wins because he is on a superteam with a lot more talent than the Sonics, but that's cool.

lol

I'm going to keep this really simple for you.

Michael Jordan in 1996 averaged 27/5/4 on eFG of 44%

LeBron James in 2013 averaged 28/8/4 on eFG of 65%

You said LeBron was "remarkably bad". How can you say differently about Jordan? Looking at those numbers MJ was worse. So maybe horrifically bad is a better term.

You are embarrassing yourself and destroying any other argument you make when you can't admit such a thing.

ya 38 year old ray allen in his final season was such a game changer. and obv 22.8 pts on .637 TS is just so awful and is certainly not gonna help his team win.

you are a joke. when jordan puts up weaker stats and his team wins you give all the credit to jordan. when lebron puts up super efficient stats and his teammates contribute then you denigrate lebron despite the team winning. when lebron puts up immense stats and his teammates play poorly, you blame lebron.

the fact is that the nba is far tougher than the scrubs that jordan played against. jordan would not be able to compete with the spurs or warriors of this era. lebron actually beat those teams. beating the 2016 warriors is the greatest basketball achievement of all time and in doing so lebron played at the highest level of basketball ever.

we know how jordan responded to the only tough team that he ever faced. he whined and cried and forced the nba to change how they called fouls so that he could get every call against the pistons. that was the only strong team that he faced. the rest of his competition was a garbage on a team level and even worse from an individual standpoint.

watch some highlights or full games from that era. defense was nonexistent. players just stood around. its an insult to call it the same game. its an insult to compare players from that era to today.

It's an insult to Jordan to say LeBron is greater than him.

This is also a top 5 dumbest post in the entire thread

amazing.