how do people with eyes actually believe labron is goat?

i mean, i get it if you are a millennial and never witnessed the true goat, so all you have to go on is the pretender king.

but damn step out your virtual world for a minute and put the stat sheets down. in the real world they still play the damn game! and your man lost and jordan won. won by miles.

i agree with the labron fans that he is the greatest athlete to play nba(probably). so you can at least hand your hat on that.

I'm going to stop arguing with you about MJ being a catch and shoot guy.

He wasn't remarkably bad. Argue he could have been better, but if that's him being bad, you are basically saying that he is GOAT. Because his "remarkably bad" is amazing.


Good work. He did make a lot of jump shots that game. Go watch the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzuMJ0hlMS4

3 catch and shoots. In a 54 point game. He drained jumpers from everywhere. But most of them were self created. That's what MJ did. He was maybe the GOAT at getting his own shot.

Please please please stop saying he was a catch and shoot player.

Fidstar,

Too much logic and visual proof for a guy saying Jordan joined a Sixers-level squad his rookie year (27-55) vs Lebron joining 0.7 VORP ALL STAR Big Z and his strong 17-65 Cavs team

This, this, this!!! These are great points!!! Awesome detective work, this seems like something espn would come up with.

How many times do you have to make the Bronies look like fools before they stfu?
Yes lebron is a great player, possibly 2nd best all time. But he is nowhere near Jordan's level, it has been proved time after time in this thread.

Imho James, Kobe is a lot better debate.

Lol is ESPN supposed to be the barometer of quality stats now

Can we stop responding to this guy who obviously pretty special.

Discipline: the chances of martingaling to 1500 are higher than the chances that Lebron ever catches Jordan or stops becoming a passive aggressive beta *****.

I see being a noob in blackjack (maths or w.e the fack) makes you an idiot in everything else like basketball ?

Ok...

If you don't know basic concepts then yes, you are an idiot

I think you would be surprise how many people do not know gambling concepts and stats but still are pretty good and intelligent in their working field and personal life....
For example:
If i am not mistaking, las vegas is still open....and still successful, right ?

You are assuming that the top 8 then would be inferior to the top 8 now. WL is an incredibly stupid way to compare, for the reasons you give. Concluding that the 8th team then is as horrible as this year's Hawks, Bulls, Pacers, Bucks is really dumb. Take 1989. The number 8 team in the east was the Celtics, featuring Ainge, Mchale, Parrish, DJ, Brian Shaw. Bird was hurt, but that's still a better team than the Hawks this year. Look at 1988. Knicks finished 8th with a losing record with Ewing, Cartwright, Mark Jackson. Would probably finish 4th in the East now.

I find it hilarious that you can say if someone doesn't know that the martingale system is floored, he can't understand basketball.

It actually makes you the "special" one RT for thinking that.

For large stretches of the last 3 games, you barely knew Lebron was even on the floor.. No, Lebron was not "amazing" in the 2014 Finals.. Is that even possible when your team is trampled like a bad AAU team by record amounts?

He had no discernable impact, which isn't possible if he's the goat.. For example, look at the Bulls in 1986 playoffs - they had no chance against the Celtics dynasty, so Jordan's efforts should have no impact, right?

And yet, his 30-win Bulls played the Celtics closer in PPG and ORtg than Lebron's champion Heat played the Spurs.. This was mainly because Jordan was doing everything in his power to give his team a chance (44 ppg on 51%)...

now HE was amazing in defeat.. but not lebron, whose 17 shots per game indicates a steady search for open shots (hardly "amazing"), and that he was resigned to losing and stat-protection.. like, seriously - how can lebron be "amazing" when jordan was more competitive with a 30-win team than lebron was with his championship team?


3 catch-and-shoot MAKES, out of 18 MAKES.

that's 18% of his makes, and the other game was 24%... that's a lot, especially for one of the best rim-attackers and athletes ever

MJ was absolutely a catch-and-shoot player, along with many other types of player, including slasher, post-up player, etc, etc, etc

Btw, your post sounded like you thought it was rare for young Jordan to shoot a ton of jumpers.. it was standard, even for rookie jordan.. half his field goals are jumpers, like in his 63 point game, or ANY game he ever had.. his 59 point game against detroit in 1988 was a shooting clinic.. a healthy dose of catch-and-shoot, as always
.

Dude averaged 28/8/4/2 on TS% of 68% against the guy who would go on and win the next two Defensive Player of the Year awards.

Once margins get big, you can't take them at full value. Does it matter if it is 15 or 20? Does it matter if one team scores the last 10 points of the game when all the reserves are out there?

In the Bulls series they were competitive for 1 out of 3 games.

In the SA series the Cavs were competitive in 2 of the 5 games. The first two. They won one and were down by 2 with 4 minutes left and LeBron went down with cramps.

Who knows how that series actually turns out if LeBron doesn't cramp. Could have easily been 2-0 having won both on the road.

My post clearly didn't say that. MJ was a great jump shooter. One of the GOAT mid range players, particularly late in his career. But he generally created his own shot. He's not a catch and shoot guy.

You know how sometimes you'll hear of a high school team getting beat by 50 or 70 points or whatever?

Well someone on the losing team still had like 24 points or something.. that was lebron in 2014 Finals.. completely empty stats.. record blowout.

and again, how can lebron be "amazing" when jordan was more competitive with a 30-win team than lebron was with his championship team?.. obviously, lebron was horrible, compared to jordan..

and we haven't even talked about defense, where lebron's defense allowed his assignment to get fmvp (it's now happened 3 times in his career)


no need to guess:

Spurs raverage margin of victory:. 14.0
Celtics average margin of victory:. 13.7

Spurs radvantage in ORtg:. 16.0
Celtics advantage in ORtg:. 13.1


http://www.basketball-reference.com/...s-celtics.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...-vs-spurs.html

Again, how can Lebron's performance be passable, if Jordan was more competitive with his 30-win Bulls, than Lebron was with his champion Heat?


smh

all the excuses that lebron fans must make.... and it's because he lost as the favorite (2009 and 2011), and lost when it was 50/50 (2014 Finals).

otoh, jordan never lost as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50, so his fans don't need to make excuses.. he only lost when he was a BIG underdog.


except he did it all the time

in the 2 games that YOU posted so far, 20% of Jordan's makes were catch-and-shoots..

that's well above guys like wade, westbrook, lebron, etc, who barely do ANY catch-and-shoot

Can you really stop posting this ****, 609. It's borderline ******ed. You keep trying to use some sort of sports transitive bull**** and it literally doesn't make any sense. Despite getting blown out in both cases, at least the Heat won a game. Again it doesn't really matter that much. Yes Lebron could have played better, Spurs could have played worse but the rest of Heat could have played better as well.

You say Lebron had garbage stats, by your definition, MJ did too when he team was getting blown out. Basically your assumption is that during any blow out a player has garbage stats, guess what, most players have garbage stats then, and a ton of them.

By the same take Lebron HAS WON as a big underdog a few times while Jordan has not. Last year in the finals and the Pistons series a few years ago in 2007. Yes he's also lost as a favorite but when you play as many series as he has it's expected. He's been dogs in most of his finals series 6 of 8 or 5 of 8 so he's won basically what's he's been expected to win.

When you lose and you go against the best player on the other team, they tend to win finals MVP. Durant won it this year, I don't think Lebron really guarded him that much. I'm not sure if Iggy was guarded by Lebron in 2015, but he won it because he slowed Lebron down despite Kyrie/Love being out for almost the entire series.

What has this got to do with anything?

You do realize that you are talking about a 3 game sample size on Jordan and a 5 game sample size on LeBron. If you don't think LeBron's numbers were great in that series, I don't know what to say. fwiw those numbers were better than MJ's numbers (by a lot) in his 96 Finals appearance against the Sonics.

Was MJ good against the Sonics. By your reckoning he was remarkably bad.

You mean the guy who scored a whole 18ppg?

Want to get this right. Guy who has 18/6/2 was great, but the guy who had 28/8/4 was remarkably bad. Gottcha. No double standards at all.

You missed the point of my post. Junk time don't mean ****. Bulls competitive in a lower percentage of the games than Heat.

I'm not a LeBron fan. I've had a hatred for him since he joined the league. I am Michael Jordan's biggest fan and think he is GOAT.

I don't think that anyone is doubting that MJ has an amazing record as favorite. It's one of his big reasons most people have him number one.

I'd argue he wasn't big underdog in 90 against Detroit, being that they swept them the next year with basically identical teams.

I'd argue that he wasn't a big underdog against the Magic in 95 either.

except he did it all the time

Two game sample size. He wasn't a catch and shoot player. He could do it. But it wasn't his game.

You actually realize you are arguing LeBron's side of the argument saying MJ was a catch and shoot guy?

U MAD BRO?

Bronies stooping to new lows

Lmao

MJ = goat

Rebecca twigley = SHOOK

True dat

Rebecca twigley,
Did you ever make it past 25nl LMFAO!!!!
Nice thread loser

No wonder you support bron, most underachieving pricks do

"there's nothing anyone could've done, we just got beat by a better team"

that excuse works best when you're a horrible 8-seed and get beat by a champion 1-seed in the first round..

it doesn't work when you're a Finals team - so your primary argument to defend 3/8 is actually best-suited to defend an 8 vs. 1 seed loss, and LEAST-suited to defend Lebron's losses with Finals teams.

and again - if you're saying Lebron's teams had no chance in most of their Finals, then the entire East has no chance and is therefore a trash conference.. you can't have it both ways - you can't say lebron had no chance in most of his Finals, but then say the East ISN'T trash... because if the East has no chance most years, then they're trash.


Jordan was an underdog going into 1991 Finals, as NBA.com documents here:

"Even with that and home court advantage, the Bulls were considered big underdogs to the Lakers in the Finals and the vast majority of media "experts" predicted an easy Lakers' victory."

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/top-20...1-season.html/

The Bulls were also underdogs in 1998 Finals and didn't have homecourt


Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON


not if he's trying to be goat

to contend for goat, losing as the favorite or when it's 50/50 count against him, since that's the goat standard


Durant was embarassing lebron repeatedly and espn showed the stats of their h2h matchup - what series were you watching

and someone did a video of iggy scoring on lebron over and over in 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGdMvQ-RPpY


ultimately, 3 different Finals opponents, 3 different FMVP's.. so there's a pattern.. lebron should probably delegate some of those defensive rebounds and focus on defense more



i never said lebron had garbage stats - i said he played poorly.. there's a difference..

Jordan's blowout to Celtics is excused because his team was at the bottom of the league.. Otoh, Lebron had a 2-time defending championship team that got beat worse than Jordan's crap team.

lebron's stats still looked solid - but it was like Iverson stats, where they covered up his poor approach to the game.. obviously, iverson and lebron's approach is poor for different reasons, but both result in sub-par teamwork.. and sub-par teamwork hurt the heat in 2014 Finals, since the spurs beat them using better teamwork, not better talent.

You literally wrote complete empty stats which is garbage stats. I can quote it for you.

This poor approach **** makes little sense as well.

His approach works a bunch of times until it doesn't. So it won him 3 titles but for some reason the same approach leads to a loss, your conclusion is it doesn't work? Maybe there is another reason, they were outmatched or outgameplanned. As I mentioned, wade played significantly worse in the finals that year and when you have a big 2 or big 3 it really matters when the number 2 is playing terribly.

I didn't say they were giant dogs in all the finals, just dogs.

The last 3 years should be obvious why they were dogs in a number of finals. Sometimes other teams are just really good, in turn it doesn't make the team their playing or the conference their playing for really bad. You always jump to conclusions. I can't conclude that the west is bad because the cavs and heat won finals in a few seasons can I?

I'm not saying iggy didn't score but he averaged like 15 a game in the finals and won MVP. Lebron was gassed against Durant he had to basically play the entire game because the cavs got smoked every time he sat. Lebron wasn't successful in guarding Durant, no one really is and it doesn't help that Durant got more rest than Lebron and Durant could count on his bench not fumbling leads. I think the warriors had much more talent than the cavs especially on the bench. Like I think the warriors starting lineup is a 10 and the cavs is probably a 8-9 maybe better but the warriors had so much more bench production from iggy, McGee and others while rjeff, deron, etc. stunk up the place. I think the warriors bench is probably a 8 or 9 while the cavs is probably a 5 or 6.

Yes, LeBron's super efficient stats are the same as Iverson's terribly inefficient stats.

609 you know you can win this argument without being extreme and filled with hyperbole right?