This. I am also immensely looking forward to woodtards mental gymnastics again as well

Here is a player LeBron made worst and what he has to say about LeBron:

Kyrie Irving should take lessons from Wooderson and realize Kyrie is deteriorating as a player next to such a fraud. He's being made worst! Oh Gosh, what an amazing hot take, quickly, somebody save Kyrie's career!!!

millennials might actually be regressing as a generation.

some blame social media.

others blame the lack of vitamins in gmo and processed foods.

yet some go as far as to blame freemasons and the illuminati.

it's a conundrum. all i know is, it doesn't look good for them.

(sigh) ah the old days. much simpler times, when goats just won everything. no need to project talent or potential. or have nerds use math formulas to predict the future.

lol olds.

Hey don't knock woodman, he has a lot of professional experience as a basketball player

Lol wasting your time finding player quotes praising LeBron. Monta Ellis thought be was the 2nd best player in the NBA. Their opinions are worthless.

You still haven't named one single player LeBron has made better.


Like actually made better. Not a quote where they think they're better.

Also man Tien you are furious bro. I knew that LeBron taking another pathetic L in the finals was going to have this effect on some of you but give it a rest.

LeBron>Jordan people are basicslly climate change deniers and 911 truthers at this point. You're arguing a position that is factually and objectively incorrect.

Can you define made better? How can you prove any player made any other player better? You don't know if they would have gotten better just by chance or the other players help. The issue is you guys like to assume that x player made y player better because it's your guy and the opposite if it isn't but both sides basically have second hand proof.

Just like the Jordan golden touch only wins finals arguments, except when for some reason he loses in the playoffs he doesn't have said touch when he comes back from retirement. Like it went away and came right back. When in actuality it only really is due to how good his team is including his own play.

you really need to stop engaging with arguments like "Lebron never made anyone better", just laugh it off and move on

this thread keeps delivering

It's also a given that if you had a HOF calibre player since their rookie year they will get better by default, with or without an all time great next to them.

If Scottie Pippen was thrown on some garbage ass team he would have improved regardless. It's also very difficult if not impossible to make a non playermaker "better" by turning him into a playmaker. Passing skill sets are ingrained in a person. Shumpert won't be a great point guard no matter what you do with him. Jordan ain't turning Shump into an all star. Jordan didn't turn Steve Kerr into an all star either.

Jordan got Rodman when rodman was older, yet Jordan didn't do anything to make him better as a player. His skills were set at that point.

The assumptions and premise behind the argument is completely flawed. Like corrupted sample sizes dictating a study. Wrong wrong wrong no matter what conclusion is reached.

3rd best of all time might be a more interesting thread. Lebron or Duncan?

Did not disappoint.

I just realized something- not only is Jordan >LaBald in the NBA, but in the Olympics as well. Thoughts?

It never does, guy is just clueless

Mostly a joke, but as the bar is elevated by better play throughout the league we are more likely to prop up old timers who played against a lower level of comp.

In reality anyone who doesn't at least consider the possibility of 1a/1b in favor of either player is likely a troll or incapable of smart basketball analysis.

Also KAJ never truly gets his due.

Those are my top 3 with Jordan 1a Lebron 1b with the likelihood that he overtakes Jordan.


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Historic stat-padding losers like Labronze, Oscar Robertson, Westbrook, and CP2 love "advanced stats" like PER because dominating the ball all game long will overrate the hell out of your game.

True winners like Steph, Jordan, Duncan, KAJ don't need to pound the ball for 15 seconds of the shot clock and hope their teammates can bail them out.

Jordan and kaj have great PER stats, in fact Jordan has the best all time. Again, try better arguments. Additionally Jordan has the highest career usage all time with lower assist numbers than lebron.

You can vomit as much incorrect hot takes as you want out in the public sphere. But when people challenge you on it and destroy your arguments, saying "u mad" and a "climate denier" doesn't actually help your position in any kind of debate. Unless this is a high school play ground argument.

JR Smith devoted himself to defence starting last year. He was tasked to guarding the other team's best player, that turned him into a 2 way player and got 15 million as a result and was a starter on a team that took down a a 73-win team. He didn't become a better player though!! LeBron changed JR's entire life around, but what a fraud!

Delly became a better player under LeBron.

Kyrie became a better player under LeBron, learning as much as he can to become a playmaker.

What is your mental gymnastics now? Its ok, I'll give you time to dig around and come up with new definitions of what becoming a "Better player" is.

Remember when Lebronzy had to get Dwayne ****ING WADE and CHRIS ****ING BOSH to try to win a championship? I do. Then choked against the Mavs, beat a weak ass thunder team, and was extremly lucky to beat the spurs in game 6. Im guessing spurs win percentage was in the 90s in that game.

Also Wooderson best poster itt

PER does likes stat padding to an extent, but it's actually one of the better ones to help players that are more efficient

e.g.
2017 Westbrook - 32/11/10 - PER 30.6
2016 Curry - 30/7/5 - PER 31.5

I'm not in the bucket re: LeBron doesn't make players better, but using Kyrie as proof he makes someone better isn't the best argument.

I mean when LeBron got there he was 21 year old first draft pick. He is now 24. I think what he has done since LeBron got there can be largely attributed to a 1st pick in a draft going from 21 to 24 years old. He's doing what he should be doing. Getting better.

which is why this a terrible conversation that no one ever has. This is something we may mention if we were discussing coaches, and even then it would be a terribly misinformed discussion where everyone would just keep their biases.
The fact is that players play better with Lebron, as they should, as they did with Jordan (probably more so, because that's part of Lebron's skill set)

But, but, he's a winner now.......same with smith .....

It's really hard to prove this on either side of the argument so it's pretty silly to argue it. I'll agree kyrie isn't the best argument for lebrons side in improvement. We could say the same thing about pippen. Just a great who matured under jordans watch. I'd hope Jordan made pippen better but like I hope Lebron would make kyrie better; and all these improvement are not necessarily reflected in the box score. With that being said, it's really tough to prove any of these things. Like most of these arguments, it's basically throwing random **** on the wall.

Really weird post.

It's basically saying "It's a stupid argument to have but LeBron is better at it"

no, I'm saying arguing a player made another improve is a terrible argument. A different, saner, argument is that a player has positive influence on another's performance, it seems pretty clear that everyone agrees Lebron does this better (which prompted this silly argument that this isn't "actual improvement").
I'm very willing to agree that there are negatives that come with Lebron dominating the ball more than Jordan, stunting teammate development is not one of them.