7 is higher then 4 .
What you think of the buffalo bill 0-4 ?
Do you consider them a championship team ?
Pretty amazing today we consider winning in the final the same as losing in the finals …
While bother to play it shrug

Huh ?
I thought magic and IT were great PG and good scorer .
Guess I was wrong .
How many title in the 80s between those 2 ?

If Jordan played with the garbage LeBron had his first run in Cleveland for his entire career he'd probably have 0 rings.

It's hilarious that when LeBron rotted in Cleveland and had zero rings people wanted to use that against him. Meanwhile every other all time great with rings got to play with other Hall of Famers.

But yea LeBron should have just played his entire career with trash teammates bc he got drafted on to a team with a completely incompetent front office. Makes total sense.Almost as much sense as the pretzel logic of "derp derp losing in the first round is better than losing in the finals".

I mean Kobe forced a draft night trade to play with prime Shaq but God forbid LeBron leaves a team that literally wins 20 games without him.

I actually think Jordan was the better player but the arguments people use against LeBron are pure comedy at this point.

LeBron sent Garnett and Allen to Boston? That's news to me.

And dwade was a final mvp without LeBron , something mj never had to work with either ….
Why bring this up?

Anthony Davis 2018 -> mvp3 like pippen as well , nba1,def1, dpoy3 in 2018 ….
No wonder lebron won a title with him ?

As if that was not the case for Mj in the entire 80s????

Mj pushed his teammates instead and made Grant and pippen champions.
Mj was not particularly loved for it but he made them winners !

I will always give credits to Grant and pippen for doing the work , but they certainly wernt hof talent when they got drafted …..
Grant still waiting …

Are you capable of following an argument or are you just incoherently babbling?

My post was in response to TWOG's claim that Jordan had the "least help" ever.

If your team wins 55 games without you, you can't ever say that you had the "least help" ever. It's complete bullshit.

My original post references only the 2011 to 2016 period and says that Lebron was the only guy teaming up during this period:

"No one else was teaming up from 2011-2016, so Lebron had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. Only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were preseason favorites for 6 straight years (11-16') until Durant finally responded.

The 08' Celtics have nothing to do with the team-ups that occurred much later when only 1 guy was doing it for 6 years straight before Durant finally responded in 2017.. The 08' Celtics also didn't play the 11' Heat - the Heat played the fossil and massive underdog version of the Celtics big 3.. much worse than the 14' Heat.




Remember that we're talking about years that I watched - Garnett was not "Garnett" when he came back from his injury in 2010 - he was a shell and the entire team was old.. Pierce, Allen and Horace Grant isn't a sufficient cast for the "Truth" to have a viable contender.. Lebron's best chance was to make it through the 2010 East and face Kobe who was also old - he could barely finish those Finals viably and peak Lebron could've worn him down.. But it would've taken an "assassin" mentality (think "no mercy" from Karate Kid) so I don't think peak Lebron had what it takes to beat an old Kobe, let alone a young one.. peak Lebron was a massive choker.

Phil inherited a championship team because the 89' Bulls nearly made the Finals and were the only team that won any games against the Pistons during that run - the Pistons were 11-0 against everyone but 4-2 against the Bulls and most people don't realize that Pippen didn't play in Game 6 of that series, just like he missed Game 7 the following year in 1990 - he "migrained" 2 years in a row!

Most people don't know that about the 89' series (that pippen didn't play in the final game) - this hurts Doug Collins because people give Phil a pass for losing in 1990 due to the "mirgraine", even though Collins actually experienced the same choke from Pippen in 89' when he missed Game 6.. Pippen also had 7 points in Game 5 and averaged 9.7 on 40% for the series..

(edit: pippen played 1 minute in Game 6, aka "migraine".. his first one.. boxscore here).

Even though the Bulls were a low seed and 1-man team in 89', they were still a championship team because of how well MJ was playing - he led the Bulls to historic upset over the #1 SRS Cavs who had 3 all-stars plus Ron Harper (20/5/5).. Then he upset Ewing's Knicks.. Of course 10 points from pippen in Games 5 and 6 easily wins the ECF vs Pistons, while the Finals would be an easy matchup vs the injured Lakers (no Magic, Worthy or Scott).



The Pippen-led Bulls had not developed a 55-win record from scratch by toiling away in previous years with weaker records and eventually becoming a good team..

it was JORDAN that was a good enough to be a franchise player and build a team, not Pippen... it took 40/6/8 and "the shot" against the #1 SRS Cavs to achieve historic upset and make the ECF, which built the Bulls into contenders.. Could Pippen do that because that's what it took to build the Bulls from 85-90' - it took the GOAT like fighting through injury to make the playoffs and playoff history in 1986, or the historic upsets during the 89' run, or the historic 88' season of 50 wins with zero cast or coaching (dpoy/mvp season).

Otoh, history shows that a Pippen-led team that developed from lottery to 50 wins could never exist because Pippen was averaging 8 and 9 ppg in the playoffs until he was 26 years old.

So it was Jordan that built the Bulls into 3-peat champions and then told the cast to try it alone in 94'.. Opponents no longer had to circle their calendar or plan what to tell their grandkids - no one gave a sh** about playing the Bulls - it was a massive letdown to see the Bulls on the other end of the court without the GOAT..,. But the cat was out of the bag in 95' and the "real" bulls without MJ were barely .500 before he returned to bring another 3-peat

The 08' Celtics have nothing to do with the team-ups that occurred much later when only 1 guy was doing it for 6 straight years - only Lebron hand-picked preseason favorites from 2011 to 2016 before Durant finally responded in 2017.

The 08' Celtics didn't play the 11' Heat - the Heat played the fossil and massive underdog version of the Celtics' big 3.. They were much older and worse than the 14' Heat.

Ultimately, Jordan beat Isiah, Dumars and Rodman when they were 27-29 years old in 1991, while KD, Pierce and Allen were 32-34 when Lebron beat them in 2011 and he needed Wade to lead the team in scoring.. That's like Bird coming along and leading the Bulls in scoring when Jordan finally beat the Pistons in 91'.

Jordan would never have "the worst Finals team ever" with the East all-star center and this acquisition:

05' HUGHES....... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN......... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5... No All-D

Jordan would obviously 3-peat with that... Otoh, Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position turned Hughes, Westbrook, Ingram or Wade into spot-up shooters, so they cannot develop into "pippens"... Lebron's skillset has all-time bad chemistry - it's the primary reason he's inferior to Jordan and it's skillset based - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill, touch or great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) limits capacity for ball movement and elite chemistry.

History shows that despite having coach Mike Brown, a 2x all-star center and a 22/5/5 acquisition, the Cavs were only a 45-win team in Year 5 (2008) until Lebron got the all-star spacing that his stiff-arm needs to be MVP and have a real contender in 09'.. Then he added Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite and still found a way to blow it.. Then super-teams didn't work the following year and have mostly lost ever since.

.
2010 Wade......... 28 PER.... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe.......... 21 PER.... 4.1 BPM




When did Lebron's "Finals streak" begin?

It began after his "decision" to take the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team and one of those 1st options was the next-best player in the league - Wade was #2 in PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48, so he was the #2 producer in the league.. He was a Kobe-level player and actually better than Kobe at that time (see stats above).

But ultimately, it's a disgrace that fans think lebron he needs a Kobe-level sidekick and were disappointed with Wade when he fell to Pippen-caliber from 2013-2016 (20/5/5 and all-star).. Prime Wade was overkill because why should Lebron need a Kobe-level player to win?.. Why would fans get mad when Wade fell to Pippen-caliber from 13-16'?




If you lose the Finals, it means you wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference, so Finals appearances are conference-dependent... Accordingly, winning the Finals is all that matters to confirm that you beat the entire league, not just a conference, especially a conference that you diluted by putting the top 1st options on your team.. Real fans could care less about Lebron's obviously manufactured Finals streak where he put all the good players on his team and then faced diluted rookie teams with zero chance and zero talent.. Np one cares about lebron beating Rose or Hibbert when he should've been facing Wade or Bosh.

It isn't about who is the "better passer"... It's the fact that Jordan can be all-time level at that skillset if he wants to, while Lebron can't be elite at what Jordan did - jumpshooting or playing off-teammates, aka off-ball.

Lebron can't run a ball movement offense like the warriors, spurs, or triangle.. he can only run a version of luka-ball, SGA-ball, harden-ball, westbrook-ball - anyone can do that and Jordan did that in the 91' Finals (without dominating the ball) or the 89' regular season..

If the Bulls needed elite APG or playmaking, Jordan was the only option.. He was instantly the best point guard in the league as a 1st-time point guard at 26 years old in 1989.. So Jordan can do what Lebron does (high assists), but Lebron can't do what Jordan does (ball movement, elite chemistry/fits, #1 offenses... being unbeatable with just 1 other star).

And he was lucky to have the goat scorer that could carry the scoring load so he could just surround him with cheap defenders (a GM's dream), while Lebron can't carry the scoring load and therefore needs expensive star help (a GM's nightmare).

Jordan allowed Krause to have build the only dynasty that wasn't an all-star team or a team-up of the league's top 2 players (shaq/kobe)

Ultimately, Jordan was unbeatable with 1 other star, while Lebron mostly lost with 2.. There's no getting past this..

Pippen , Grant , and Armstrong were in their prime having their best year all at the same time that year .
Grant with Armstrong made AS that year , the only time in their career .
U had 3 all stars plus Kerr seem to be in his prime too ….

And that is one year !
Year after what happened ?
They barely made .500 until mj came back and the team changed dramatically.
13W-4L is a hell lot better then .500?
(Not mentioning the rusty MJ 95 regular season was almost equally good as ….2002 MJ .)
At least paint the whole picture imo .


They just had one great year in 1994 and loss in the second round vs the knicks .
The last year all-inmclovin was happy !

Fwiw , take that 1994 team with those players at their prime and put it in 1990 and MJ gets easily another ring and maybe even 1989 ….
Those players did progress throughout the years .

Btw when I hear competition sucks during MJ finals and yet they praise the 94 bulls teams being great already without MJ .
How come it took prime MJ with an amazing final performance to beat the suns if they sucked so much and 94 bulls without MJ was so great ?

For funsies: Jokic led the NBA in BPM/VORP for the 4th straight season this year. Only other guys to do it in NBA history are Lebron, Jordan, and Bird.

Jokic is bad bc he has a high assist count. Stop cherry picking stats. /s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you ever think things through? MJ's supporting cast couldn't have been possibly that great since MJ barely beat the Suns who weren't that great with his supporting cast, isn't exactly an argument in MJ's favor. I mean, most people on your side are terrible posters, but you might be multiple levels below even the bottom of the barrel here.

Also, you're confusing some arguments that are about era-comparison with arguments that are fundamentally about era-relative ability. The Suns were a great team for the time, but the fact that the Suns were that good relative to the time is certainly an indictment of the era. Likewise, the 1994 Bulls were a very good team, but that doesn't mean they were good relative to today's teams, it's just that basketball wasn't nearly as competitive back then.

From today's perspective, sure, that MJ putting up a .558 TS against the likes of Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge and Kevin Johnson is considered an amazing final performance is somewhat amusing, but MJ was, for sure, an MVP-caliber player, and for the purposes of comparing players across eras, we should lean heavily on how they did against their competition.

The only reason I've always said that high assists are bad is because 10+ assists was always accompanied by ball-domination (which requires more help) - literally always - Jokic is the first player that achieves 10+ assists with low time of possession (low ball-domination)..

So Jokic is breaking the mold just like Jordan broke the mold about scoring champs being unable to play championship brand of ball (win titles), or SG's not being viable franchise players that can build a champion..

Phil told MJ that he wouldn't be scoring champ in the "equal-opportunity" triangle and MJ proved superior than Phil thought he was by being scoring champ every year.. It proves that Phil overestimated the triangle because the Bulls still needed 41 ppg from MJ in the 93' Finals or the highest percentage of team points ever in 98', or 34/7/7 fdr the 91-93' Playoffs..

MJ invented the footwork required for a perimeter player to dominate post position in the triangle, and Kobe copied it - Phil and the triangle have zero chips without MJ or his clone (kobe).

1993 Finals

SUNS............ 106.7 ppg.... 113.0 ortg
BULLS'.......... 106.7 ppg.... 113.0 ortg

How could a cast be considered good if it's CONFIRMED that it needed 41 ppg from the 1st option?

Of course Pippen had 46.9 true shooting (0% from three), so he couldn't handle additional load.

Btw, the path to the Finals is much easier when there's only 2 stacked teams in the league that make the Finals every year and you're on one of those teams... This kind of "top-heavy" league contrasts with a league where the talent is more spread out and there are MANY finals-caliber teams - this is a much harder path where everyone plays opponents of relatively-equal on-paper talent.. this is how the 90's were, especially in the West where the winner had defeated all the other long-standing organic juggernauts and was a battle-tested unit having their banner year - they were freight trains that made it through the gauntlet and had everything going for them.. So the 93' Suns were a complete juggernaut and battle-tested.... These kinds of long-standing organic juggernauts that came out of the 90's West every year are similar to the organic teams that beat Lebron, aka Spurs, Nuggets, Warriors, Magic or Mavs..

And the 94' Bulls were the best example of a one-off that there's ever been - a team flying under the radar that no one gave a crap about and got exposed once everyone took notice in the 94' Playoffs and following season.

btw, Jordan's 56 true shooting is amazing considering he was facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level), which Lebron has never done.. Lebron always had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level) - Lebron averaged 2-5 more points than sidekicks in his Finals wins compared to 10-20 for MJ.,.

Clearly, this greater defensive attention (carrying the scoring load) has always put downward pressure on Jordan's shooting efficiency compared to Lebron's, along with Jordan's greater jumpshooting/ball movement, which yields better fits, strategy and winning.. However, shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of efficiency per possession, where MJ's is higher because Lebron is the #1 all-time turnover kingpin - LeButterFingers

You're probably trolling here, even though very few on Lebron's side cares whether Wemby takes over (newsflash: Lebron isn't that popular, most people on Lebron's side aren't fanboys like you, most of us just think this is the most logical position) but either way, the chance that Wemby will overtake Lebron in the same way Lebron overtook MJ are fairly low. Wemby has a reasonable shot at surpassing Lebron's peak purely as a basketball player in a vacuum, but Lebron did that to MJ probably like back in 2006, but it took a long time for him to be seen as the GOAT even by a substantial minority.

Wemby will be up against much tougher competition than even Lebron, so his peak relative to his peers might come far below Lebron's even if he becomes objectively way better as a player than peak Lebron. Given that Lebron's career completely dwarfs MJ's, yet people like you come out of the woodwork every day to say moronic things, it's going to take a long time for Wemby as well, even if he does end up having a legit GOAT career.

I kind of disagree with this on a few levels, 1) Wemby is a good passer and isn't really comparable to young AD in that sense, I also don't think they are really comparable as players and Wemby has potential to be far better at basically everything, 2) Wemby I think has significant GOAT equity even without developing into an elite passer because he could easily develop into an all-time level defender, 3) I don't think Jokic has significant GOAT equity at this point; he will certainly be an all-time great, but his ceiling at this point is more like Curry/Bird rather than Lebron/Kareem.

I'm also happy to elaborate on the Jokic case as well if anyone's interested.

This is definitely one of those limitations for BPM, because players with Jokic's statistical profile tend to be elite defenders, but Jokic isn't an elite defender and is merely adequate (and can be a poor matchup against certain teams). Yet Jokic led the league in *defensive* BPM 3 years in a row.

AD > Murray

D-Lo was an all-star compared to nothing for Porter

Reaves vs Gordon is a wash and everyone else is a wash too - it's splitting hairs.. the Lakers cast is better by virtue of advantages at the 2nd and 3rd option (AD and D-Lo)

Yet Lebron-ball is an underdog because Lebron-ball often has bad regular seasons that underachieve the team's on-paper talent and initial favored expectation.. Lebron is just bad at chemistry and brand of ball, so he produces perennial underdogs regardless of cast or preseason favorite status.

twog, I thought you don't watch the NBA? How do you know how good any of these players are? Why do you have an opinion on Curry and Jokic at all?

twog: 90's basketball = best basketball
also twog: jumpshooting is the most important thing
also twog: today's basketball is beginner format because of spacing
also twog: 90's basketball was tough and physical and hard and i quit basketball because everyone's so soft
also twog: lebron lacks jumpshooting and has to clumsily bully his way to score

Has it ever occurred to you that spacing is a byproduct of today's players being far better at, uhm, jumpshooting? Has it also ever occurred to you that jumpshooting is a fairly soft way to play the game? Are you aware that MJ and the Bulls were complaining about how the game was being played back then was "not basketball" because it was too physical and they literally got the rules changed to make the game softer?

Or did you perhaps lose all of your brain cells while scoring 4 points in college basketball?