But how is he at 20ft contested 2 point shots? Those are the pinnacle of basketball

His season is a lot like the Jerry Rice stats after 40, he's so far beyond the rest of nba history it is hard to quantify

QFT.

When Jordan had the highest-scoring game of his career (69 points), he had 18 rebounds, 6 assists and 4 steals.. He averaged 35/6/6/3/2 on 54% in 1988.... Only Jordan and Wilt had goat offense and goat defense, while the point guard skillset that you laud (APG) is a small aspect of the game that Jordan dominated at it's highest level when asked to be a 1st-time point guard at 26 years old - he was instantly the best PG in the league - that's goat talent for the game of basketball.

So you're just lying when you imply that there's a material gap in "versatility" when it's really the other way around - MJ had superior offensive rebounds, BPG, SPG, better turnover rate, post ability, FT %, 2-point jumpshooting, 3-point jumpshooting (when we look at today's volume and exclude forced, "bailout volume" years or series).... MJ shot 36-39% at today's volumes in the regular season/playoffs and this was without practice, so he would be over 40% in today's era WITH practice.. There's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes, while Lebron has many series or seasons of shooting below-standard at today's volumes.. Btw, similar to Jordan, Bird shot great at today's volumes as well, aka 41% on when he had 3+ attempts for his career, and 43% when he had 5+ (46% if we look at pre-injury only).

So the only categories Lebron has are defensive rebounds and ball-dominance/assists, and also producing the worst teams to ever play on the championship level (22-33), while also having many monikers like goat-choker, goat-colluder, LeCheatCode and many others for shamelessly stacking the deck and then mostly losing with each cast.. Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates, while MJ was unbeatable with 1 - that's a big gap that I don't see how Lebron fans explain away.

Although I’m in somewhat of agreement re: being OK with Jordan being the GOAT, I think it’s only justifiable at this point if you are picking a GOAT based on peak performance of a few seasons (5-7 year peak).

MJ fans don’t really have a leg to stand on otherwise at this point. It’s actually become kind of embarrassing for them as Lebron has continued high level play and they continue to try and convince us MJ would have aged well if he didn’t retire despite his Wizards years proving this false. Or simply repeating 6-0 in the Finals.

The bottom line is MJ “played” 15 seasons. 2 of those were on the Wizards where he was somewhere between a solid starter and good role player depending on how his broken body held up. 2 more were massively shortened by injury or retirement. We’re basically looking at 11 full seasons of all-nba level play from MJ, with one of the best 5 year prime peaks of all time.

Lebron is about to make his 20th! all-NBA team. Game-wise, he’s well clear of 500+ games of Jordan in terms of elite level play. Now sure, you can argue that Jordan’s best stretch he was better than Lebron was. But the difference is pretty marginal and Lebron still has a top 3-4 peak ever of even the shortest timeframes. And the amount he’s played he’s simply absolutely lapped MJ. You can see this easily using BPM/VORP. Jordan bests Lebron in (tweaked) career BPM, 9.2 to 8.6, and playoff BPM, 11.1 to 10. In VORP which is simply cumulative BPM, Lebron bests Jordan 151.7 to 116.1 and playoffs 35.4 to 24.7. That’s a gap of 46.4 total. 46.4 VORP itself would be a hall of fame career on its own. The gap between Lebron and MJ is literally a top 50 NBA player of all time and continues to grow each year.

There is simply no argument any longer for MJ > Lebron career wise. And I think candybar could potentially be onto something in terms of MJ isn’t a lock at 2 there either. He simply did not play long enough with a well rounded enough skillset to cement him as top 2. I believe that even if you are an MJ skeptic/Lebron truther that the decades and decades of pro-MJ propaganda along with the total overrating historically of isolation scoring being the most important quality in a player raises the view of MJ too high. I mean just think about it logically - what is MJ better than Lebron at, other than specifically scoring in midrange isolation? Lebron is very clearly superior at:

Rim finishing
Outside shooting
Passing/playmaking
Rebounding
On-ball defending
Help defending
Rim protection

People joke about this but there is a reason why the youth who weren’t born when MJ played have their minds blown when they actually watch the games. It is totally comical for them to turn on these 80s and 90s MJ games and compare it to what they are told by the old heads clinging to the past. The thing about the huge majority of pro-MJ people is they don’t even argue he was just superior on a relative basis but an absolute one. Then you turn on the games, the players can’t even dribble well, they stand around, spacing is non-existent etc. It’s embarrassing, truly. I mean it makes sense that the majority of MJ fans are literally dying out, and his #1 fan ITT has admitted to not having watched the NBA in the last 15 years. This is basically a reverse Idiocracy situation.

Jokic is the only guy I’m taking over him. I think you can formulate an argument for Lebron especially if you shorten it to 1-2 games but for a full series, I give the nod to Joker.

Luka would be next, for now I’m still taking Lebron over him though.

See how easy those guys are to replace?.. it's because they're all low producing role-players.. Horace or Rodman could easily be Haslem and Varejao, let alone Bosh, Love or Jamison..

Hodges and Kerr could be Mike Miller or Chalmers or Battier.. Kukoc and Harper could be Korver and JR Smith... Cartwright and Longley are Mosgov and Zydrunas or McGee or Tristan or Boozer.

Clearly, Jordan won with Lebron's role players

And stop crying about Wade's caliber from 2013 to 2016 because why does Lebron need a Kobe-level player to carry him like prime Wade???.. Why isn't being an all-star and 20/5/5 enough to win (pippen-caliber), while also having an extra star in Bosh anyways?.. Why did Lebron mostly lose with that while MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star?

(btw, it's absolutely legit to compare an all-defender like Varejao to a fossil like Rodman who wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs.)




His wouldn't even think of trying to run that with today's high-scoring, ball-dominant skillsets like Luka, Lebron or Westbrook - they would never be able to run it because they lack the post dominance, footwork and expert jumpshooting skill required to be the 1st option in that offense.. Luka might have a chance but Lebron would never hire the "triangle guy".. And Westbrook would just be Westbrook and play hard regardless but not have success with the jumpshot-requiring triangle.

And Phil didn't think the system would be the kind of unbeatable force that it was in part because it never was before in it's 50 year history, and in part because he didn't realize how great MJ was - he told MJ that he wouldn't be scoring champ anymore - can you believe that?? .. Phil must've been proud and a little cocky like "i told him.. i've always been wanting to say that to this hot-dogging star... it's time for equal-opportunity and the triangle"... MJ proceeded to shock Phil with his high-caliber beyond anything Phil dreamed - it turns out that Phil's triangle still needed 41 ppg in the 93' Finals or 34/7/7 for the 91-93' Playoffs, or 36/7/8 for the 91-93' Finals - and MJ was scoring champ every time while also being the only guy to win as usage champ (5 times)... It turns out that Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach when MJ won with him in 1990/91, while MJ was already the goat candidate - so you do the math - once Phil was established with 2 three-peats, he could get respect that he would never have gotten from Shaq, which is exactly what Shaq said.

I wouldn't put much emphasis on BPM, they tweaked the formula a few years ago because of Westbrook.


https://www.sports-reference.com/blo...ucing-bpm-2-0/

Old:

LeBron James 9.1
Michael Jordan 8.1
Charles Barkley 7.4
David Robinson 7.4
James Harden 7.3
Larry Bird 7.2
Magic Johnson 7.2
Chris Paul 7.1
Stephen Curry 6.5
Kawhi Leonard 6.4


New:

Michael Jordan 9.2
LeBron James 8.9
Chis Paul 7.6
Magic Johnson 7.5
David Robinson 7.5
James Harden 6.9
Larry Bird 6.9
John Stockton 6.8
Kawhi Leonard 6.8
Kevin Durant 6.7


And now CP is top 3 in BPM all time but not even a top 15 talent all time.

Actually, Lebron was only MVP or all-defense for a small window of 5 years (2009-2013), while MJ was MVP and 1st team defense from 88-98' (top 5 DPOY as well), so that's the goat peak and also the goat peak longevity - he was MVP and 1st team defense throughout a 10 year period, compared to only 5 years for Lebron.

MJ was MVP and Finals MVP at 35 years old (and 1st team defense), while Lebron was FMVP at 35 but hadn't been MVP or all-defense for nearly a decade... it's a clear gap... MJ had goat offense and defense for an 11-year period (88-98'), while also winning twice as many rings as the best player and having double the win frequency overall for their careers (40% to 20%).




and that stretch was 12 years (88-98') - MVP and 1st team defense in 88' and 98' vs Lebron only from 09-13'

MJ's higher caliber (goat offense and defense for 10 years) allowed him to be unbeatable with 1 star teammate, while Lebron mostly lost with 2 - it's not close and it's always been a fake debate




VORP is cumulative (based on longevity), but Jordan has 5 of the top 7 VORP seasons of all-time.. VORP is his strongest category

He also leads Lebron in PER, BPM and WS/48

and Jordan is #1 all-time in those categories for the regular season and also playoffs when proper minimums on games are placed (to weed out early-career players like Jokic, Giannis or Doncic that haven't had chance to level out - they won't do this for 11 years like MJ did from 88-98' and really 87-98').






MJ had superior offensive rebounds, BPG, SPG, better turnover rate, post ability, FT %, 2-point jumpshooting, 3-point jumpshooting (when we look at today's volume and exclude forced, "bailout volume" years or series).... MJ shot 36-39% at today's volumes in the regular season/playoffs and this was without practice, so he would be over 40% in today's era WITH practice.. There's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes, while Lebron has many series or seasons of shooting below-standard at today's volumes.. Btw, similar to Jordan, Bird shot great at today's volumes as well, aka 41% on when he had 3+ attempts for his career, and 43% when he had 5+ (46% if we look at pre-injury only).

So the only categories Lebron has are defensive rebounds and ball-dominance/assists, and also producing the worst teams to ever play on the championship level (22-33), while also having many monikers like goat-choker, goat-colluder, LeCheatCode and many others for shamelessly stacking the deck and then mostly losing with each cast.. Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates, while MJ was unbeatable with 1 - that's a big gap that I don't see how Lebron fans explain away.

You can't just look at 3+ 3pa games and pretend that the rest of the games didn't happen, that's not how stats work, and even if you could the sample size for those games is tiny and a ton are from the short 3pt era too

.
Rookie MJ was thrown into the playoffs right away as an 8 seed, while 3rd year Lebron and his all-star center got this acquisition before entering their first playoff season:

05' HUGHES....... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN......... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5... No All-D

Yet they were still a garbage 45-win team by Year 5 (2008) until Lebron got the all-star spacing that his stiff-arm needs in 2009 to be MVP and have a real contender.. Then he added Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite and still found a way to blow it.. Then super-teams didn't work the following year and have mostly lost ever since.
.

There's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes, while Lebron has many series or seasons of shooting below-standard at today's volumes

We don't have to use 3+ attempts - we can use anything greater than 3 or as low as 1.5 - MJ didn't have any seasons where he was between 1.5 and 3 - it was either bailout volume (1.5 or less) or today's volume (3+)

So again, excluding forced, "bailout volume" years or series, MJ shot 36-39% at today's volumes in the regular season or playoffs and this was without practice, so he would be over 40% in today's era WITH practice.. Similarly, Bird shot great at today's volumes as well, aka 41% on when he had 3+ attempts for his career, and 43% when he had 5+ (46% if we look at pre-injury only).

Ultimately, Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates, while MJ was unbeatable with 1 - that's a big gap that I don't see how Lebron fans explain it away

It's a shame Stocktown has so many "fake" / "manufactured" / "homecooked" assists in his stats. LeBron if he played til 45 would be able to break the all time assists record then, but alas he probably finishes about 1200 assists short.

TWOG is seriously trying to spin adding 40-year old Shaq as a positive.

Is this real life?

I love how his arguments are so intellectually dishonest and hate-based that he's literally turned all the neutrals ITT to the LeBron side. Well done, TWOG, congrats!

Fallguy and other Jordan stans in this thread like allblackdan, hellmuth, Matt R, 72off are on the same level of basketball understanding, literally at the very bottom of the barrel.


Emotionally driven mixed with high levels of nostalgia.

Yup. At this point all the Jordan stans left simply don't believe their hero could ever be unseated. "Passion of the Mike" is literally what it is.

he made one today

He was throwing all kinds of spectacular passes typical of the best passers in NBA history, like Nash, Magic, or Jokic.

TWOG logic would be that LeBron was "carried" by Anthony Davis because he outscored LeBron by 2 points in this game.

The GOAT should be selfish and never be outscored by a teammate, you see.

Don't forget that you need 6 uncoordinated oafs who can't dribble or shoot to stand in the paint and clog everything up. 90s basketball the beautiful game where 50% of the roster has no skill set other than being tall.

Jordan was a ballhog and control freak. He punched Steve Kerr in the face at practice! Steve Kerr! What kind of threat has Steve Kerr been to anyone ever in his entire life??? Jordan really deserves more gripe over that.

LeBron is a giver, not a taker. Always has been. He made "the right basketball play" by passing in the clutch before it was "cool" and "accepted". He never once backed down on his beliefs that he made the best basketball play. He probably has the highest basketball IQ of all time. I remember a Ringer (?) article I read some years back about LeBron playing chess, and people were saying that should be his game.. but then some others were saying nah, he's a Grandmaster at Basketball and the top one at that. He's like the Magnus Carlsen of Basketball.. except he would be rated 3200 ELO and not 2882. And he has the freaking all-time scoring record. How sick is that. A pass first guy is the all-time scorer. LeBron was never Jordan, was NEVER going to be Jordan. He had elements of Magic and that was about it.. he was really his own player, in his own mold. Much like Wemby is his own player with some elements of Durant and Gobert. I feel privileged for being able to watch LeBron all these years and I really hope he keeps playing as long as possible.

I just think it’s unlikely his body holds up for a decade+

But I can see him putting together a 5 year peak that is unrivalled

LeBron regressing athletically and aging into prime Magic was not an outcome I was prepared for!

He was ****ing awesome yesterday from the jump, including locking down Zion on defense. Privilege to watch.

this X-post where I predict something which I believe has a very real chance of happening...


is fallguy's worst nightmare:



https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=2245

“MJ never shot poorly on high volume, only low volume, therefore he would have been an elite shooter on high volume because of a couple cherry picked games” is possibly the worst argument I’ve ever heard constructed.

Bam Adebayo is a career 40% 3 point shooter on all games he’s shot 3+ 3PA. By the logic of some, Bam is basically Steph Curry, just held back by Spo’s system.

MJ shot poorly on high volume vs the Sonics in the Finals didn't he!?


fallguy is not even grasping at straws at this point, his entire drink is split all over the table while he fumbles with his keyboard.

FACTS!

In many ways this is the most important thing to understand about the GOAT debate. The MJ side has a core logic that LBJ is not MJ, and this is a bad thing. His record is not like MJ, his game is not like MJ, he switched teams, he deferred and he had a passive aggressive persona. The logic flows that if LBJ is not MJ, he cannot be the greatest.

The LBJ side never claims he is MJ. He IS different - we agree entirely. But it's a good thing.

MJ could have entered the NBA from high school, there just wasn't a mutual appetite to do it. He wasn't ready. In the respective timelines, a few weeks after MJ hit the winning shot for the Natty LeBron was scoring 25 points in a row to beat the Pistons in the ECF.

At the end of his career, MJ had an opportunity to do something really interesting as Wizards GM adding himself on a 1 year deal with a coach of his choosing. The imagination wasn't there. LeBron changed the game in this regard, having a transformative impact on the player / team balance of power. I would see this as a massive positive because the players are the product, in the end, and they deserve the freedom to maximise their careers.

(and @AllInMcLovin has a non zero chance of being correct in predicting LBJ to do something wild this offseason)

I'd take that a step further when it comes to Jordan leaving the Bulls, and how it is portrayed in the Last Dance. The implied lack of agency on the part of MJ, that he wanted to try another year but ownership wouldn't let him. And that - given he implies he would have played post lockout - he wouldn't demand a trade somewhere, or advocate against ownership via acolytes in the media. As I've said before, if that portrayal in the Last Dance is accurate, then MJ was beta with regards to his career management. Going cap in hand to ownership, and meekly accepting their decision. All a bit sad.

LeBron took agency over his career, that's the bottom line. It can be argued that his influence is too great at times, and he has pushed for the wrong players and the wrong coaches. If blowing up the 2020 Lakers around him and AD was his decision, it was wrong. If some of those 2018 Cavs deals were his decision, they were bad value. And so on. But the clear difference between LBJ and MJ is that LeBron wasn't waiting around for an organisation to hit on the right picks, the right coach, the right signings. He was going to set it up himself; and sign deals that give him leverage to manage his career proactively.

And if you don't like this, and you think it was better in MJ's time. Just remember that the narrative you are buying into was that the 90's world of team control which robbed MK of a chance to 4 peat and forced him to retire against his will was "better". That has to be nonsense, surely?

It is hard to build Dynasties and Phil Jackson was clearly very good at it.

Then, in regard to this exchange:

The first thing to note here is that LBJ and his supposedly inefficient "Ball domination" went to 8 straight finals, and 9 finals in 10 years. TWOG defines this period as proof that LBJ was a loser, was not capable of Dynasties. I mean, ****, he created an entire decade of LeBron vs Someone Else on the biggest stage. The reasons why it didn't work out as 3 titles in a row are well worn at this point. But to try and paint it as a losing style of basketball is just so...silly

Allied to that, trying to equate MJ's triangle offense to the death lineup Warriors is further silliness. It doesn't pass the eye test, on any sort of basic level. It's an entirely different style and pace and concept that requires different capabilities from the players involved. It's a somewhat clever way to try and argue the position: everything that is successful aligns to MJ; anything that isn't successful is different from MJ. But Mullen has it right with this:

So yeah, LeBron took a different path, played a different game in a remarkably different NBA landscape. That is good, not bad.

There's another side to this coin between the lines of the MJ people, the suggestion that Jordan could have done it if it was the done thing. If MJ could have hopped teams sooner or if he had decided to play longer or decided to shoot more, he could have done it all.

This leads us to these very silly 3 point arguments:

Like I do think MJ would have adjusted and been a better 3 point shooter in the hypothetical scenario where he was born two decades later. But it never occurred to him to try and improve that during his career, indeed he took less attempts from 3 each year with the wizards (0.9 per game and 0.7 per game).

By contrast, LeBron has actively worked on and improved this aspect of his game as he has aged. Transforming from a below average 3 point shooter with the potential to be streaky to one of the better 3 point shooters in the league, who is now very consistent from certain parts of the floor.

The MJ crew will say it wasn't the done thing at the time, but that really is the whole ****ing point here. MJ was the GOAT when he retired, but the idea that would hold forever is silly. New ideas, new applications, more players with greater skill: the endless relentless drive of human progress. LeBron has taken better care of his body; he has been more dedicated to his game; he has worked tirelessly to add new weapons as his athleticism faded. These are clearly good things, not bad!

You know, if MJ had stayed retired the second time this debate would almost be impossible. MJ's career would be essentially perfect, bookended by The Shot. 26 years later MJ fans could paint any picture they like about what 39 year old MJ would have been capable of. They could look at LeBron's age 39 season or his game last night and simply say that MJ could have done it, if he was arsed to do it.

But he did come back. He did play age 38 - 40. He did it in the context of him building the team exactly how he wanted it around his minimum deal, with his chosen coach. So we can compare. And the comparison quite simply is what it is.

Yes, MJ and LeBron are different with different paths. Different rates of maturation as young players; different rates of decline as old players. From the LBJ side, these differences are quite obviously good, not bad.