The fact that there's this huge league-wide and media push to get Lebron a 5th ring proves that winning matters and everything I said about a player producing high team ceilings matters.. If they get lebron a 5th ring, all of a sudden being a winner and ring count will matter again.. So again, team ceiling matters and a guy that can produce unbeatable teams provides more title equity than a player that cannot produce unbeatable teams and mostly loses every year regardless of cast..

People are just lying about the title equity Lebron provides - he mostly loses regardless of cast and isn't capable of having stretches where a cast of his mostly wins.. A player that produces teams that mostly lose the title provides less title equity than someone that can produce unbeatable teams that have stretches of mostly winning every year

You realize all of your arguments can just be used against you and then it's obviously Bill Russell? Do you know how silly you'd sound to an even older head when you come to your conclusions it's The Mike?

Like MJ can't hold a candle to Russell when it comes to all the **** you talk bout.

I'll tell you exactly what he'll say to that.

Bill Russell was carried by all the scoring help he had.

Sort by ppg. Ignore that Bill Russell is the best defender of all-time and the best player on the Celtics.

‘Huge league wide league and media push to get LeBron a 5th ring’

TWOG should really submit invoices to clutch for rent, given LeBron lives in his head. What a weird conspiracy, particularly in a year where the Lakers are going to likely end up a 9th seed on ~46 wins.

LeBron James is the bogeyman to TWOG.

Probably something about only 8 teams, even though the nba went from 23 to 29 in the decade of Jordan's prime but obviously the league talent is lower now than during the expansion era

^^^^ there that's it - that's disqualifying - that's what you guys don't understand

At no point from Jordan's sophomore year of college through his Wizards years, would he ever have a low seed with this Lakers roster.

The fact that Lebron had low seed with David Robinson as teammate is disqualifying and we already know that Lebron was lottery with AD already, while also losing in 1st Round and being swept 4-0 by a 1-star organic team.

All of this is disqualifying because MJ could never be low seed, lottery, or 1st Round loser with a rich man's Pippen, aka Robinson/AD - the #4 all-time PER as a teammate.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg... Winning 53 games in 2017 with 2 all-star teammates is disqualifying because instead of the Finals being a clash of titans like that the 80's Lakers/Celtics, it was considered a big mismatch and big underdog status for the Cavs.. Again, MJ would never win 53 games with 2 franchise players and all-stars as teammates.. The Cavs would win 65-75 games so the Finals was the clash of titans it should've been.

Missing the 05' Playoffs with the East all-star center is disqualifying... 22 on 36% vs Spurs is disqualifying...... 7 TO in 4th quarter of critical playoff game to get upset by 1-star team is disqualifying..... Losing by record amount despite even odds entering the series and 2 all-star teammates is disqualifying...

Ultimately, there are many seasons of Lebron's where MJ would've done better, but zero seasons of MJ's where Lebron could've done better with the same cast - remember that Lebron needed an all-star teammate to win 40 games in 05' and added a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender to win 50 and make 06' Playoffs.. Otoh, MJ needed no cast or coaching to win 40, 50 or make Playoffs.. Also keep in mind that Lebron never won a series vs a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams in 2 decades.
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Offense matters, otherwise you're just a defender - Russell has like 5 Bruce Bowen rings as 5th and 6th option

Regardless, in the history of post-civil rights, post-merger and 3-pointer basketball, Jordan had twice as many rings as the best player as anyone else... (it can easily be argued that a Duncan and Lebron were only the best player for 3 of their rings)

Btw, the "just a defender" argument is the obvious counter to people that say Pippen's scoring didn't matter - it DID matter because he was the 2nd scoring option, so if he's "just a defender", then he's derelict of duty and forces MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)...

Unfortunately, that's exactly what MJ was forced to do (carry scoring load) for the playoffs and Finals of 6 titles, which otherwise has only been done rarely in one-off fashion.. In addition to carrying the scoring load (defeating max defensive attention), Jordan led Pippen is APG for their regular season career, playoff career and Finals career, while also getting more DPOY votes every year (except 96/97).

I guess some here just focus on rim protection being true value while perimeter defence is worth almost 0 .
That is why so much praise on Russel and so much dubious view on MJ defense.

Rim protection is a primary driver of good defense but so is culture of effort and long-standing chemistry, both of which are possible due to MJ's mentality that promotes effort and style of play that allows chemistry to develop.

The 2023 Nuggets had these things (culture of effort and long-standing chemistry), which allowed them to lock down the Heat in the Finals despite not having any good defenders.

Similarly, the 90's Bulls got better each time they lost their best defender in 94' (lost MJ), 95' (lost Horace), 98' (lost Pip for 1st half of yr) - each time the Bulls had better defenses after losing a great defender.. This is because they still had culture of effort and long-standing chemistry.

Accordingly, any team with MJ will develop great defense because he promotes culture of effort and long-standing chemistry.. Even the 2002 Wizards that completely turned around defensively with MJ before the his injury.. Laettner recently said the most amazing thing about MJ was how much effort he put into the defensive end of the floor.. That rubs off on teammates and what a contrast to LeMatador's defense

Regardless, MJ carrying the offense more than anyone ever has, while also having the attributes that help develop a great team defense puts him over Russell.. Unlike Lebron and MJ who played against many of the same players, MJ and Russell never played against any of the same guys - the 50's & 60's were truly the beginning and "pre-historic times" of the NBA

What did I say?

Sort by ppg, the extent of TWOG's analysis.

Even if you count them as Bruce Bowen rings he has 6 more of them, but one of the dumbest takes from him.

Russell isn't a POS degenerate like MJ, it took a mastermind like Jackson to keep a roster together, he'd be a Kyrie with modern media attention and random coaches

Comedy gold here.

Good to see you didn't let him have the only dumbest take.

This and its glorious

I think you want it to be one way @allblackdan, but it’s the other way.

When I was in high school, I jerked off in a freezer at my supermarket to a Jessica Alba Maxim issue.


No regrets.

^^^ MJ is the only player that was expected to win with no offensive help

which makes him GOAT

you're saying that scoring help is irrelevant for MJ when it's literally the biggest kind of help that everyone else in history needed.

Ultimately, MJ is the only player that won multiple chips with bad offensive help and low-scoring teammates and where he had to carry scoring load for playoffs and Finals - he won 6 titles this way, while otherwise it was only done in one-off fashion such as 06' Wade, 03' Duncan, 94' Hakeem, or 00' Shaq.

It's ironic that the Klutch fraudsters say Jordan was "just a scorer", when infact, Bill Russell was often "just a defender"

As usual, the opposite of mainstream voices is infact the truth

It can be easily shown that Russell was often "just a defender", while Jordan was never just a scorer by virtue of being a top 5 DPOY from 88-98' including a 2nd place in 1993 and 1st in 88'...

Jordan also led Pippen in assists for their Finals career, Playoff career, and regular season career, which includes 6 of 9 playoff runs and 3 title runs.. Jordan also averaged more assists in the playoffs than Lebron thru half their chips, which is the first 9 years of their playoff careers until Curry' spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards - only then did Lebron begin averaging more assists than MJ in the playoffs.

when we consider:

* KD's twice-confirmed superior ability with Westbrook.... i.e. taking baby Westbrick to the Finals in 2012 and then getting a 3-1 lead against a fresh 73-win team - these 2 things demonstrate superior capability with Westbrook than Lebron missing play-in with Westbrook and AD - it's a massive chasm in ability

* KD's superior chemistry with all player-types and the superior strategic capacity/coaching that his skillset offers teams

* the "unbeatable" team ceiling that KD gives a team (17-19' Warriors) compared to Lebron mostly losing regardless of cast

* KD destroying Lebron HU on numerous occasion including the 12/17/18 Finals

it's clear that KD has an argument to be made over Lebron...

but Lebron simply had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond because by then it was too late andn he got 2nd pickings, aka injured players likek harden & kyrie, while his moves looked late and desperate compared to 1st-mover Lebron (in the colluding space).
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How am I "hating" by pointing out a clear disparity that Lebron has a low seed this year and missed the play-in with AD, while Jordan went 6/6 with poor man's AD?

Jordan was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star, while Lebron mostly lost with 2 all-stars like Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love, and now he's 1/4 with Jeff Bezos version of Pippen (AD).

How can Lebron have a goat case given this obvious disparity in capability?

Lebron actually missed the play-in with two Pippen-level producers because those Lakers had AD and Westbrook..

And don't blame "bad fit" because bad fit = skill deficit.. It's Lebron's fault that he lacks the expert jumpshooting skill and hoops instinct to play off teammates (off-ball), which would allow great fit with Westbrook like KD had... KD had a 3-1 lead against a fresh Warriors team, and already made the Finals with baby Westbrick in 2012, while Lebron missed the play-in with Westbrook and AD.. So Lebron struggles to demonstrate superior capability to KD, let alone MJ.. It's simply a fake debate that Klutch Sports created by lying about MJ and Lebron's careers.




In addition to MJ never having a low seed or lottery season with AD, it's obvious that MJ would never have the meltdowns in 2011 or 2010 either

MJ would also never average 22 on 36% vs Spurs in 07', or miss playoffs with East all-star center in 05'.. He also would never lose by record amount despite having the preseason favorite and even odds entering the series like Lebron had in the 2014 Finals..

He would also never win 53 games in 2017 with 2 all-star teammates - this was pathetic by Lebron and the horrible regular season made the Finals a massive mismatch instead of a clash of titans like the 80's Celtics/Lakers...

Ultimately, there are many seasons of Lebron's career that MJ would've done much better, while there are zero seasons of MJ where Lebron would've done better... Lebron wouldn't do better in Jordan's first few seasons because Lebron needed an all-star teammate to win 40 games in 05', and then he needed a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender to win 50 and make 06' Playoffs.. Otoh, MJ needed no cast or coaching to win 40, 50 or make Playoffs.. Also keep in mind that Lebron never won a series vs a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams in 2 decades.

Given the extra help that Lebron needed to win 40 and 50 games, or to carry weak help over top teams, there are zero seasons of Jordan's career that Lebron would've done better but many seasons of Lebron's career where MJ would've done much better.





Lebron can't run off screens and play shooting guard, nor can he guard guys like Klay off screens - so Lebron cannot play or defend shooting guards.

Furthermore, Lebron can't play power forward because otherwise he would've had a great fit with Westbrook.

PF's like Karl Malone or AD love ball-dominators like Stockton or Lebron... Accordingly, bad fits with Westbrook, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Hughes, Wade, and more confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions because someone that plays 5 positions cannot have bad fits..

The history of bad fits and clashes with other ball-handlers like Westbrook confirms that Lebron simply has a point guard skillset (ball-dominance), which clashes with other ball-handlers and forwards - specifically, Lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls chemistry and young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (more help).. This is statistical fact - Lebron decreases his teammates assists and increases their assisted rate (turns them into play-finishers/spot-up shooters).




"Organic" winners like Curry, Jokic, Giannis or MJ had regular rosters with only 1 franchise player, while Lebron obtained better rosters by putting 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka "super-team".. Since organic rosters are characterized by lacking ready-made talent, they must win with development of chemistry, brand of ball and young players.. This kind of chemistry and young player development are hallmarks of the "organic" path, but unfortunately, Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)..

Lebron is forced to rely on ball-dominance because he lacks expert jumpshooting skill, while also lacking the ability or great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball).. Since Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles hinders teammate development, chemistry or strategic capcacity/coaching, he fields mostly weak records, perennial underdogs and low team ceiling/Finals records regardless of cast.

Ultimately, guys like Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Mj and Lebron all took the organic path of chemistry development to achieve league favorites by Year 7 with "normal" or "organic" rosters... But Lebron simply gave up in 2010 and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development (organic), and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic




Every bad team like the current Pistons will eventually win a game, so even the worst teams eventually win... Therefore, it's stupid to praise Lebron for producing bad teams that eventually win once in a while, instead of praising players that can produce great teams that mostly win titles every year.

Again, the fraud is selling the public that Lebron's rosters are bad and his teams are supposed to have bad regular season records when in reality his rosters were the preseason favorite and have more all-stars than MJ ever had... The downplaying of the regular season and his rosters makes his teams underdogs, so that the eventual upset win is praised.. Meanwhile guys that produce great regular season records and dominant favorites that mostly win every year are crapped on by saying they have stacked teams.. It's fraud.. The reality is that Curry and MJ would have 10 titles each and many 70-win seasons with Lebron's rosters.. They already won more than him with far less supporting talent or seasons.

Russell's five MVPs more than clearly contradict the take that he was "just a defender."

And, lol, Jordan's DPOY votes are the definition of mainstream voices.

You're all over the place.

I would go a step further and say PPG is basically how Jordan and Kobe stans think.

It starts at PPG and ends there.