He won , nothing more was needed .
Brady is not the best quarterback because this year he didn’t break every record in a final game tho he won ?
Why not condemn a 100m runner of not being the best because his not beating world record every race even if he won o0 ?
Seem now winning isn’t enough but losing with millions of excuses is ?
Are we at that point now lol , wow .

are we not watching the same guy? the same game? the guy i see has shoulders like arnold. the rim on my tv is 10 feet in the air. it's an advantage to be a whole hand higher than everyone because that's where the ball goes. if he aint tea bagging you with his balls in your face he's flipping the ball backwards or cross court like magic.

I got LeBron as a better passer than Magic. He not only hits the open man but passes it directly to the exact spot that the player wants to receive it for maximum +EV shooting ability.

So ?
What is your point ?
No one can win alone we know that .
My point is there was a lot of players you could match MJ with instead of pippen and still wins .
I can’t find any with pippen .

Seriously can anyone really hold an opinion that without being with MJ all those years , entering the league at 7pp pippen would be the player he became ?
MJ made pippen not the other way around .
Ill give to pippen every props he deserve for overachieving what he did .

Ps: MJ failed early because he had teams like the warriors in front of him .....celtics/pistons .
It ain’t about pippen .
He failed like LeBron did but MJ didn’t failed where LeBron failed .
That is the difference .

there are certain guys...if they get a steal and there is someone back defending the rim can pass it behind them without looking because that is where his teammate should be and is. Nash, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kidd there are certain guys. Jordan wasn't that type of guy. He would just challenge the defender and dunk on him. Jordan was 100% on point all the time. Lock you down. Like Charles said about the MVP award, Michael Jordan is the MVP every year. Jordan is the defensive player of the year, every year. Everybody knows it. He's Michael Jordan. My God.

But at some point you have to bow down to physics.

It's important to understand that BPM is an approximation at best and the error bar is fairly high. BPM 2.0 is also less accurate as a strict +/- estimator, but Westbrook broke BPM 1.0, so they put up something that is less accurate historically. Lebron had an edge over MJ in BPM 1.0 in terms of peak stats.

Lebron also played in a play-by-play era (and we all saw what happened to the 3 teams he left behind) so we have relatively high confidence that he's not just putting up empty stats. We lack that level of confidence for MJ's stats. On the other hand, we know the Bulls did fairly well without him in the 93-94 season and in the 85-86 season, the Bulls were 21-43 without him and 9-9 with him (and 40-42 with him the following season) - I mean that's a good super-star level impact, but nowhere near as much as his BPM of 9.7 (85-86) and 10.8 (86-87) would suggest. On the other hand, the best post-Lebron team ever - the Heat in 2013-14 - saw their net rating collapse by 8.1. I know people love to cite Bosh missing much of the season, but they were 19-25 with Bosh and 18-20 without him. They also didn't simply lose Lebron - they added a lot of useful talent, they traded assets and fillers for Goran Dragic, which more than made up for Bosh missing much of the season. They also added another then plus player in Whiteside and also Deng, who may have been their best all-around player that season. On the whole, aside from going from Lebron to Deng, the Heat were quite a bit better in 2014-15 than in 2013-14. Yet their net rating collapsed by 8.1, despite Deng having a pretty good season.

A closer look at MJ's numbers suggest that MJ's late-career impact numbers aren't that great. His +/- are superficially great for instance in 96-97, MJ was +13.3/on and +5.4/off, but mostly due to playing most of his minutes with Pippen (who, for the same reason was +13.4/on and +5.3/off), not unlike when Steph and Draymond put up all-time +/- by pretty much playing most of their minutes together. What's remarkable was that their best players disproportionately played together (to a much greater extent than top players on modern teams) yet without MJ (which also meant disproportionately no Pippen and no Rodman), the Bulls crushed to the tune of +5.4/100, which would've been 7th in net rating that season. I mean that kind of talent disparity is virtually impossible to have in today's league. Even the 16-17 Warriors, the most unfair team in modern history, were only -0.1 without Curry (which, to be fair, meant disproportionately no Draymond often no Klay/KD). The salary cap is such that top-heavy teams are not that deep and really deep teams typically don't have multiple superstars.

Are you suggesting MJ played worse on purpose? Because he had a better supporting cast and won, he intentionally played worse and put up (for his standards) meh numbers?

All the other stuff you posted is meaningless. Your position was that LeBron’s 2014 Finals numbers were nothing special. How many times do you think a player has averaged 28/8/4 on 68 TS% in a Finals series and had their team lose? What do you think it says about his supporting cast and opponent if they lose?

On the flip side, MJ averaged 30/6/4 on 58 TS% in the 1996 regular season. He had a 124 oRTG and the Bulls, as a team, had a 115.2 oRTG. In the Finals, his numbers and efficiency dropped considerably - his stats were posted by me above, and he personally had a 116 oRTG and the Bulls had a 111 oRTG. He was demonstrably worse and yet the team still won in 6 games. What does this say about his supporting cast and opponent?

In fact, in 2014...LeBron’s oRTG in the Finals was quite similar to his regular season (120 to 121) but everyone else on the team stunk up the joint, causing the team oRTG to plummet from 111 to 105. Wade in particular was an utter abomination, posting an impossibly bad 89 oRTG over 172 minutes in a 5 game series.

Pippen was the 5th pick in the draft and averaged 24/10/4 on 59.2 FG% in college his final season (as compared to 20/5/2 on 55.1% for MJ). He scored 7.9 PPG in his rookie season in large part due to playing next to a certain player known for hogging the ball and taking all the shots while not particularly being great at creating for his teammates.

Thank you for clarifying MJ > Pippen. I wasn’t aware anyone in this thread was arguing otherwise.

The only data we have on prime Pippen without MJ, he was an MVP candidate on a team who won 55 games and barely lost in 7 games in the ECF. So while he was not an MJ level player, he was certainly elite.

MJ failed many times (like literally every other player in modern history). Your issue is you just make excuses for him and use zero context. “He won, so nothing more was needed” Ok, so shooting 5-19 in Game 6 of the 96 Finals by MJ was a roaring success because his team won, but LeBron putting up 40/13/7 on 85 TS% in Game 5 of the Finals last year was a failure because his team lost?

It legitimately would’ve been a better discussion with people if MJ dragged his teams to the finals in the mid 80s or in 1995 and lost. That way we wouldn’t have these laughable positions.

ok jordan was 98% on point.

Yeah I flip-flop on this too but I also think Lebron's peak is just higher as a passer. Magic was flashier at times and it's hard to pick apart faults in his passing game, but Lebron (since about the 2017-18 season when I think his "passing" peak started) just delivers better and more difficult passes more consistently. With that said, I think the top 3 are pretty clearly Lebron, Magic and Nash in some order and you could easily defend any ordering between these 3.

Lebron is like the Queen in chess. But if the Queen could move like a Horse too. and if he could jump over pieces diagonal like BishopHorse. Hes got moves that have never been seen before and should be illegal bc they arent even fair.

f in A.

20 years ago i was watching espn and they said a high school game was coming up. ok it's on tv. i watched a quarter and half. a week later i said my friend dan, "you need to understand. This is a bigger Jordan. This is Magic who can jump". years later he reminded me of that, he said he thought i was kidding. said i thought you were joking but you were right. the question isn't what's wrong with lebron james...if you can't see in 3 minutes what i saw in a 17 year old...frankly the question is what is wrong with you.

Omg seriously ....are u really ?
MJ didn’t made better stats because what he did was enough to win maybe ?
Now what ? You blaming MJ for not being a bigger winner than he was now ?
It’s clear LeBron could of done much better in 2014 and the proof is that he did better many times afterwards vs better teams like the warriors .
Same for 2011....


For the bolded part .
When we talk about goat we talk about goat or we talk about performance like any other stars ?
27/2ass/8rbn was dirk stats winning vs LeBron for example .
Is dirk the goat or should LeBron do better than any other stars to win since his the goat ?


Ie : Jordan lost vs the Celtics with like what 43ppg/5ass/6 rbn vs 4-5 HoF and still I hear
« Hey jordan sucked cause without pippen he wouldn’t win anything and couldn’t pass the first round .... »
Who could of beat the Celtics when MJ himself over 40ppg for the series couldn’t .
You see the difference ?

Year after for failure 35/6/7 and after 36/4/7 and it keeps going on with same numbers ..
And you talk to me about a goat candidate doing 28/8/4 losing because others like dirk could win with stats like that ...?
Really ?
We are talking about goat and what is necessary aren’t we ?
Does he get a pass vs the warriors , yes sure .
But vs Spurs or Dallas ? After what we saw how truly good LeBron can be vs the warriors ?
Hell no !

I mean look last year , even his stats in 2020 vs much weaker team was better than 2014 ....
Are we going to blame LeBron in a winning final because he don’t do better than when he lost vs the warriors ?????
Obv. not ...

A lot of people here do not hold the same standard for MJ as for LeBron clearly .....

Why ?
It’s you that think reaching the finals changes anything ...

MJ , like Duncan , had the equivalent of The warriors in his own conference for years , preventing them to reach more finals ....

It’s you that have a problem because you give more importance losing in the final instead of prior rounds vs the actual nba champion, shrug .

I mean LeBron could of reach final by beating 41 win teams in first 2 rounds and a 53 win after in the east to reach the final for god sake .....and you give more value to this than someone losing vs goat team like Celtics or pistons in prior rounds , shrug .

Some people just based succeed on facts and accomplishments on what actually happens while others just try to find excuses to promote their wishes with « if ‘s ».

And btw , jordan was kinda force to retired in 1998 because of stupid management breaking the championship team for no reason .
Let’s talk about if with a short 50 games season on top of that shrug .
That was such non sense by the organization, I’m like still in shock by how stupid a decision it was just for ego of a DG .

All his peers are done. D wade. Kobe was done at his age. Big forward like the Truth...done. Melo done. Everybody is done at 36.

This guy is a noticeable entire standard deviation worse of an athlete than what he was. Like everyone is. from 27 to 36 years old. Father time. And he is still fin Jessie Owens. Jim Thorpe. He is still the most powerful human being...ok maybe 20 year old zion. But he is a midget compared to lebron.

sorry, am I acting like Lebron James is some special physical specimen or something? my bad.

diamond sharp. diamond mfin sharp bitches.

You got guys like KAJ, Duncan, all winners pass 36 .

yes. a sky hook coming from a lanky old man who is 7'2'' is hard to stop. yes. the big fundamental is still big at 36. and fundamental. both were effective.

and lebron james is still jumping high enough so that his testicles are in the face of the tallest people you will ever see in your life. he is an athletic phenomena never seen before on this planet. For you to imply otherwise...just get off it dude. he will probably be dunking on fools into his 40's.

Vince carter was a pretty good jumper , playing past his 40 .
Did he win anything?
What’s your point ?

More you downgrade Duncan , worst the lost of 2014 becomes and less an achievement for LeBron in 2013 ....

Duncan a third wheel , manu 36 years old on his last leg as well , kawhi a 22 years 14/1/6 in his third year ...
Only Parker 17/4/3 at 32 years old ( older than the pistons Boys In 1990 ) left vs the goat surrounded by wade,bosh , allen , etc ...
Man what a bad lost right ?

I think it’s better to give props to Duncan don’t you think ?

that lebron is the greatest most powerful biggest fastest strongest athlete ever ainec.

Shaq would crush him .
Calm down ...

he's 5 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than lawrence taylor. i feel uncomfortable watching his dunks. there is something obscene there. pornographic. its not natural man. fin gross.