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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

02-04-2017 , 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
You are a cutie patootie in your naievete.
My gf thinks so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
That you think he would honor a court order that squashes #MAGA, then you are mistaken.
I wasn't aware #MAGA was a legal case ruled upon by the courts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
I don't know how really familiar with Adolph Hitler pre world war 2 but the comparisons have a lot of strong correlations.
Your and the position of the other Boys Who Cried Wolf here are duly noted
02-04-2017 , 05:47 PM
D.
02-04-2017 , 05:48 PM
why do you even post this useless drivel
02-04-2017 , 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV Life
Well, for starters let's start with the men themselves. Both think they alone can solve the problems of their respective countries. Both think there's an ethnic group responsible for holding their country back. With Hilter, it was Jews. With Trump, it's scary Muslims that want to kill you. Both take every single slight against them personally. Both have an unhealthy grandiose view of themselves. They literally think they are better than everyone else. That's just for starters.

See, here's the thing. No one is comparing Trump today to Hitler when Hitler was at the height of his powers. But that's where Trumpkins go. It's such simplistic thinking. No, when Trump is compared to Hitler, its to the late 20's and early 30's before Hitler became you know, Hitler. Since history tends to repeat itself, people are concerned that Trump will eventually have the same power that Hitler had if he is left unchecked.

Now I know you are going to say "This is the United States. That won't happen here!" And to that, I say "Bull****." It can happen anywhere. You already have Trump doing **** where people that are in the US legally one minute are literally illegal the following minute. 100K people lost their visa INSTANTLY. I know that doesn't concern you because #MAGA but it is quite a big deal to those that actually pay attention to what is going on.
http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/u-...-2016/1.756173
02-04-2017 , 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
Trump eventually is going to order a federal agency to disregard a court order.
WHEN he does, then you will have an actual argument to make. And to vigorously pursue. Pretty hard to convict me of murder before I actually kill someone, though, as much as you might like to. And conspiracy to commit murder is a lot harder to prove.
02-04-2017 , 05:52 PM
He's more of a Fascist than a Nazi, although he has literal Nazis in his inner circle like Bannon. The Trumpist movement fits most or all of the criteria laid out for Ur-Fascism, eternal fascism, in Umberto Eco's 1995 article, "Ur-Fascism."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
Quote:
Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist. Take away imperialism from fascism and you still have Franco and Salazar. Take away colonialism and you still have the Balkan fascism of the Ustashes. Add to the Italian fascism a radical anti-capitalism (which never much fascinated Mussolini) and you have Ezra Pound. Add a cult of Celtic mythology and the Grail mysticism (completely alien to official fascism) and you have one of the most respected fascist gurus, Julius Evola.

But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages—in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge—that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the US, a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson’s The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler. Since the group is hierarchically organized (according to a military model), every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors. This reinforces the sense of mass elitism.
02-04-2017 , 05:53 PM
02-04-2017 , 05:55 PM
Which was worse for Trump so far: Week 1 or Week 2?

Week 1: exec orders for an immigrant ban, for the wall, and against the TPP. The firing of the AG.

Week 2: Bowling Green, the judge reversing his ban, Iran/Australia/Berkeley, the exec orders on financial regulations, Tillerson gets confirmed.
02-04-2017 , 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by np1235711
No one (at least I don't) advocate staying silent about anything you don't like or not making a fuss.

Lighting **** on fire, violently suppressing thought or speech were not in his playbook that I can remember. You fellas seem perfectly happy with those tactics.

Make your case and listen to the other side under the light of the noonday sun and let the merits of the argument win the day. They generally will with the vast majority in time
You are talking about 30 antifa radicals who hate the Democratic Party, hate Bernie, hate all electoral politics in the US, have no authority over or support from any broader movements or demonstrations. We are talking about the President of the United States and his administration.

Do you think this thread is about 30 unemployed neo-Nazi skinheads from San Bernardino or something? We're talking about something important.
02-04-2017 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic
He also literally said he got rid of dodd frank to make his buddies rich. Just imagine Hillary saying that. Np would have a stroke.
Does that mean his SC nomination (you know.... the thingy you advocate filibustering) is unsubstantial?
The right was all Onanistic over that one.
02-04-2017 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigoldnit
"A message that anyone could get behind"

Except:

- The numerous politicians who called him an outside agitator.

- The police who arrested him for civil disobedience (hint: when he wrote Letter From A Birmingham Jail, he wasn't there a visitor)

- The FBI, which spied on him and wrote letters to him encouraging him to commit suicide

- White moderates/liberals who told him to go slow (again, see the Letter from A Birmingham Jail)

- Oh, and the dude who shot him
Yes, I've got a large copy of the Charles Moore photograph of an impeccably-dressed Dr King being armlocked and shoved against the counter of Birmingham police station, not on that famous occasion in 1963 but an earlier one in 1958. He was arrested about 30 times in all, till he was shot.

You can see the photo here.

https://guides.wikinut.com/img/2puc9...-in-Birmingham
02-04-2017 , 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
The comparisons with hitler are very lazy but it's not just trump. There's also the serious danger of him laying pathway for someone far more ideological.
02-04-2017 , 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
You are talking about 30 antifa radicals who hate the Democratic Party, hate Bernie, hate all electoral politics in the US, have no authority over or support from any broader movements or demonstrations. We are talking about the President of the United States and his administration.

Do you think this thread is about 30 unemployed neo-Nazi skinheads from San Bernardino or something? We're talking about something important.
Almost every single one of you guys expressed your happiness Milo was shut down by any means possible.

And Trump = Hitler is so off the wall to me it reeks of 'unseriousness'. It also cheapens the memory of the suffering caused by the real Hitler.
02-04-2017 , 06:03 PM


At what point do Priebus or Pence step in for an hour to teach Donald about the political system?
02-04-2017 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by np1235711
Does that mean his SC nomination (you know.... the thingy you advocate filibustering) is unsubstantial?
The right was all Onanistic over that one.
Where have I advocated filibustering the SC nom?
02-04-2017 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by np3141596235
Almost every single one of you guys expressed your happiness Milo was shut down by any means possible.
Citation needed.
02-04-2017 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal Checkraise


At what point do Priebus or Pence step in for an hour to teach Donald about the political system?
He's correct. The judge is loosely interpreting an immigration law to claim this ban is unconstitutional
02-04-2017 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal Checkraise


At what point do Priebus or Pence step in for an hour to teach Donald about the political system?
Poor guy throwing a temper tantrum. Sad!

edit: why does he sometimes post on the @POTUS twitter or is this a lackey like Bannon or Spicer doing that?
02-04-2017 , 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by np1235711
Almost every single one of you guys expressed your happiness Milo was shut down by any means possible.

And Trump = Hitler is so off the wall to me it reeks of 'unseriousness'. It also cheapens the memory of the suffering caused by the real Hitler.
The first is not true. A few people did. Most people didn't comment. I personally expressed ambivalence.

The second I disagree with. The point of "Never Again" isn't rolling over and letting fascists get in power. It's about spotting fascists and stopping it. As a Jew it's not a trivial issue for me and I've felt exactly what you're describing in regards to Bush and Reagan - very strongly that comparisons to Hitler were inappropriate. It's not inappropriate this time.
02-04-2017 , 06:11 PM
Where is the tea party outrage over Melanie spending more tax dollars up in her tower.
02-04-2017 , 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by np1235711
Almost every single one of you guys expressed your happiness Milo was shut down by any means possible.

And Trump = Hitler is so off the wall to me it reeks of 'unseriousness'. It also cheapens the memory of the suffering caused by the real Hitler.
The first sentence didn't happen.

The second sentence was explained up thread. When people compare Trump to Hitler, it's 1928 hitler, not 1942.
02-04-2017 , 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJvK
I said I haven't followed them AS CLOSELY

But it doesn't matter. I've been told I'm a troll. That I'm a Trumpist in disguise. I'm pro-facism. Whatever else.

One day it will dawn on you why your side in this is losing so badly.

If you lose me, someone pro gay marriage, pro abortion, anti guns, who voted to remain in the EU, who lives in London, who has more college degrees than most people ... I honestly my have no idea how you expect to win over actual Trump supporters.

But keep going, keep alienating people with your righteous indignation. It's a brilliant way to achieve what you want.
next time you wish to troll posing as a liberal, it's 'pro choice'. NO ONE is pro abortion.
02-04-2017 , 06:13 PM
White mediocrity now on full display from the "president."
02-04-2017 , 06:13 PM
np,

That's besides the point though. You pretend to be ok with peaceful protest and that's what you've gotten from about 4,999,970 of the 5 million people who have so far protested this administration and that's not good enough. 30 people breaking windows (and not the guy who shot 6 muslims) changes everything for you. Well, no, it didn't really change anything because you always despised protest and loved Trump.
02-04-2017 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Citation needed.
You fellow realize "you" is both 2nd person singular and plural. Please argue most of you don't hold that position?

      
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