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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

06-16-2017 , 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Cut

https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/875792882757664768


Thread speculating on possibility of Trump being untouchable, drawing a parallel to his campaign where many observers went so far as to question wether he was trying to lose ("...it was a chilling sign he knew something they didn't").

Papa Putin has a plan?
Tweet series kinda lame and Putin doesn't have a plan. Trump played bad and got there. It ends eventually and the chicken is already past its expiration date.

One thing that both trump and Putin believe in is offense/action in favor of strategy. Thier default move is to bet every street. That's fine, keeps opponents guessing, but not usually the optimal approach.
06-16-2017 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatrich
Still don't see how firing Mueller now matters if Trump survives it--nobody's gonna remember this by 2018 elections, we can't remember what happened 2 months ago in the trump administration much less by 2018 or 2020. A ton of things are going to happen between now and then in a trump pres.
Trump should just admit the pee tape is real now. It won't change anything.
06-16-2017 , 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatrich
nah, trump's been untouchable his entire life, why would he think it's any different now? He thinks everybody should obey him now that he's POTUS. He wasn't trying to lose the election; but he had already won. Trump got everyone to talk about him and extend his business and corruption everywhere. For that POTUS is just an added fuel accelerant. He wouldn't have minded losing then blaming everyone but him and insisting it's all rigged.

Still don't see how firing Mueller now matters if Trump survives it--nobody's gonna remember this by 2018 elections, we can't remember what happened 2 months ago in the trump administration much less by 2018 or 2020. A ton of things are going to happen between now and then in a trump pres.
You underestimate how many people care about law, history, and the Constitution. We still remember 45 years after Nixon fired a special prosecutor. The event even has a name.
06-16-2017 , 05:58 PM
Where was law, history, and the Constitution today when the police officer who murdered Philando Castile was pronounced not guilty in court? We all need to prepare for the worst. There is no justice in this country.
06-16-2017 , 06:07 PM
The real question is how many pardons Trump hands out to those around him. I don't see him being dissuaded by how it will go down in history.
06-16-2017 , 06:13 PM
Trump can sneer at Cuba and Rubio will follow him anywhere. There are a lot of deals Trump can make, none of which personally cost him anything. Even a moron like Trump can figure that out.
06-16-2017 , 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
You underestimate how many people care about law, history, and the Constitution. We still remember 45 years after Nixon fired a special prosecutor. The event even has a name.
The government taking property from people accused, but not convicted was unconstitutional until lawyers just decided it wasn't "punishment".

Solitary confinement for extended periods and torture used to be unconstitutional until lawyers just decided it really wasn't cruel and unusual.

Bombing a country for more than 60 days without congressional approval was illegal until lawyers decided bombing doesn't constitute "hostilities".

The law is a joke. It's a small town movie set in an old western with the just the facades. If there is sufficient power on one side and docility on the other, laws will be interpreted in whatever way suits power.
06-16-2017 , 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Where was law, history, and the Constitution today when the police officer who murdered Philando Castile was pronounced not guilty in court? We all need to prepare for the worst. There is no justice in this country.
The nature of the law and Constitution makes cop shooting cases difficult to prove. There is a reason you need an egregious case just to get an indictment.
06-16-2017 , 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
Even this cuba stuff is bad politics. Nothing Trump is doing is good politics.
Cuba bad. Russia good. Is that the policy?
06-16-2017 , 06:31 PM
I don't know how you start convicting cops without rewriting self defense laws that are very popular.
06-16-2017 , 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Where was law, history, and the Constitution today when the police officer who murdered Philando Castile was pronounced not guilty in court? We all need to prepare for the worst. There is no justice in this country.
Are you saying the jurors all voted guilty even though they all thought he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
06-16-2017 , 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron81
I don't know how you start convicting cops without rewriting self defense laws that are very popular.
Yea the solution is better job candidates and better training so that you don't have Tackleberry shooting at everything.
06-16-2017 , 07:03 PM
06-16-2017 , 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
The government taking property from people accused, but not convicted was unconstitutional until lawyers just decided it wasn't "punishment".

Solitary confinement for extended periods and torture used to be unconstitutional until lawyers just decided it really wasn't cruel and unusual.

Bombing a country for more than 60 days without congressional approval was illegal until lawyers decided bombing doesn't constitute "hostilities".

The law is a joke. It's a small town movie set in an old western with the just the facades. If there is sufficient power on one side and docility on the other, laws will be interpreted in whatever way suits power.
The issue I'm raising is the settled understanding of the separation of powers developed over the last 230 years, which Trump isn't aware of, but is still the terrain on which the game is played.

Read the Ken Starr editorial I quoted earlier. While I think Starr is an ******* and a hack, he was a judge and a law school dean, and we both, and even people like Cruz, share a common understanding​ of certain core rules of the game. One orange small fingered moran isnt going to change that.

Trump has yet to get away with a single significant constitutional or legal violation; many are working their way through established processes.
06-16-2017 , 07:07 PM
The cop just had to show reasonable fear for his safety. It is pretty hard to find 12 people in this country who aren't perpetually terrified of minorities. If most people weren't such cowards and racists it would not be so difficult to convict the cops.
06-16-2017 , 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic
just lol at this guy doesn't know how to use a proper pen
06-16-2017 , 07:10 PM
The scary part is the base. Trump could have all the power in the world but it means nothing if he's alone in the battle. Same for GOP.

The real problem isn't the leaks. Or the obstruction, which is what naturally follows when there's a committed cover-up happening. Or even the Russian attacks, as much as they help Trump or the GOP.

No, the real problem is the fact that 1/3 of the country is hanging on to the words and commands of a paranoid schizophrenic lashing out. This is what has to be stopped. And these people don't appear to be stoppable. WTF do we do? We dodged massive mobilization by handing him the election. But now it's getting worse. Trump supporters flat out admit that they want him to do everything possible, legal or illegal, constitutional or unconstitutional, to remain in charge with unlimited unchecked power.
06-16-2017 , 07:10 PM
If the founders were worried about anything it was excessive executive power, so there are major checks on it. Any real abuse needs a pliant congress over a sustained time period, and therefore an almost supermajority of popular support. And if one can sustain a supermajority of popular support with someone like Trump, then democracy isnt really a viable system, though comparative evidence and improvement of conditions of life over time suggests it is.
06-16-2017 , 07:16 PM
If not submitted under penalty of perjury I consider those disclosures near worthless.
06-16-2017 , 07:18 PM
I was with you until your completely false last sentence our house. I doubt more than 10% of the population are true Trump die hards. And they have almost no power; they are largely stupid and desperate. Bush got down to 26% approval and got crushed in 2006 midterms.

I think 20% is probably Trump's true floor, and probably the majority of those grew up when interracial marriage was illegal and are near dead. As kuhn argues in the structure of scientific revolutions, for the most part adherents to outmoded views don't change their minds--they die and are replaced.

Last edited by simplicitus; 06-16-2017 at 07:26 PM.
06-16-2017 , 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
Are you saying the jurors all voted guilty even though they all thought he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
They voted NOT guilty because they believed being black and in (legal) possession of a gun is enough for an officer to reasonably feel his life is in danger. White supremacy is the supreme law of the land.
06-16-2017 , 07:21 PM
Simplicitus,

He's violating the hell out of the emoluments. We will see what comes of that. I expect he is already violating the War Powers Act in Yemen. No one cares about that though.

Sure lawyers played their part but when Nixon resigned his approval rating was 24%. I guess bringing up Kenneth Starr might be relevant though we did have a relatively popular president who was impeached because of the mighty power of the rule of law. Or?

On the other hand the biggest war this country has ever fought in terms of tons of bombs dropped was a secret and illegal war for which no charges were ever brought against anyone. What does the law have to do with any of this?
06-16-2017 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Our House
The scary part is the base. Trump could have all the power in the world but it means nothing if he's alone in the battle. Same for GOP.

The real problem isn't the leaks. Or the obstruction, which is what naturally follows when there's a committed cover-up happening. Or even the Russian attacks, as much as they help Trump or the GOP.

No, the real problem is the fact that 1/3 of the country is hanging on to the words and commands of a paranoid schizophrenic lashing out. This is what has to be stopped. And these people don't appear to be stoppable. WTF do we do? We dodged massive mobilization by handing him the election. But now it's getting worse. Trump supporters flat out admit that they want him to do everything possible, legal or illegal, constitutional or unconstitutional, to remain in charge with unlimited unchecked power.

I'd be a lot more worried if Trump was 50 and not 71.

I don't think the Trumpkins are as invested in him as they were 6-9 months ago. Yea, the core Trumpkins will always follow his every word, but that's not 1/3 of the country.
06-16-2017 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
Are you saying the jurors all voted guilty even though they all thought he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
Dunno about the situation you're referring to, but overall I no longer trust hardcore Trumpists (the 25% or so) to handle basic civic responsibilities like jury duty. How can people who show outright contempt for our legal system even begin to approach such things fairly?
06-16-2017 , 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV Life
I'd be a lot more worried if Trump was 50 and not 71.

I don't think the Trumpkins are as invested in him as they were 6-9 months ago. Yea, the core Trumpkins will always follow his every word, but that's not 1/3 of the country.
But, 96%. Would like to see a new figure now, but keep in mind that 4% drop off wasn't too long ago.

      
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