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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

06-15-2017 , 11:53 AM
Mueller will have access to his tax returns if he requests them.
06-15-2017 , 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
Trump tax returns are probably "fine" on their face.
The rest of your post goes without saying, but it's this first line I don't get. If they were "fine" on their face, he would've released them immediately. There is zero chance they don't contain things he's terrified of people finding out about.
06-15-2017 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synth_floyd
Mueller will have access to his tax returns if he requests them.
To borrow a phrase from Comey; Lordy I hope he has access! Because if so, I think we're gonna be okay. Once released, it's just a matter of time before he's forced out of office.
06-15-2017 , 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
It's my understanding that the president is allowed to fire the FBI director for any reason, including the one that he refused orders to drop an investigation.

Is that wrong?
I don't think even the Trumpers know for sure. Because if he could fire Comey for any reason, then why does he need letters from the AG and DAG to give himself cover that he's doing it for cause?
06-15-2017 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

The only banal thing I can think of is he's really got a hard on for that loyalty thing and Russia helped him out in the private sector a while back and he's just really wed to helping them out out of loyalty, same goes with Flynn, and I'm rolling my eyes just thinking about it, but maybe it's true. Or maybe it's some illogical, completely dumb, but banal reason that no one can think of because it doesn't make sense.
Historically Trump isn't known for having a sense of indebtedness. I'd say he's known more for being a stiff. So while he may owe for past dealings, my guess is that Russia has something over on him at the present. Similarly, I doubt his loyalty to Flynn runs too deep. I think its more likely that Flynn holds the key to some damaging information about Trump.
06-15-2017 , 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
It's my understanding that the president is allowed to fire the FBI director for any reason, including the one that he refused orders to drop an investigation.

Is that wrong?
It's half right and half wrong. It is correct that the president has the legal power to fire the FBI director. It is not correct that he is allowed to obstruct justice. So if firing the FBI director obstructs justice the problem isn't the firing of the FBI director, its that the obstructing justice part. Or at least this is how I understand it.
06-15-2017 , 12:31 PM
Right, the President has the authority to fire the FBI Director. But if he does so corruptly, then that is obstruction of justice. Which is grounds for impeachment (although unsure/doubtful if this R Congress does anything unless poll numbers fall further) and possible indictment (which is an open legal question).
06-15-2017 , 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synth_floyd
Mueller will have access to his tax returns if he requests them.
Are you sure about this? Source?

I thought the IRS in the US does not share its information with any other branch of the government.
People in the IRS won't leak anything, because it's very traceable and highly illegal. Also, they don't have any friends so they don't have anyone to talk to if they do want to leak it.
06-15-2017 , 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert

https://twitter.com/newtgingrich/sta...14161345077248
If, by "deep state", we mean a broad group of decent people, many with extensive experience in government, whose mere existence has the effect of upholding important political norms, then I guess I am a fan of the deep state.
06-15-2017 , 12:44 PM
06-15-2017 , 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigt2k4
I thought the IRS in the US does not share its information with any other branch of the government.
The Office of Special Counsel isn't really like a branch of government.
06-15-2017 , 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigt2k4
Are you sure about this? Source?

I thought the IRS in the US does not share its information with any other branch of the government.
People in the IRS won't leak anything, because it's very traceable and highly illegal. Also, they don't have any friends so they don't have anyone to talk to if they do want to leak it.
Mueller has the authority to request them and if a judge believes he has reasonable grounds to review them, then they will be released to the investigation. They will not be released publicly and I doubt they would be leaked, but Mueller would have them for the purposes of his investigation.
06-15-2017 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
If, by "deep state", we mean a broad group of decent people, many with extensive experience in government, whose mere existence has the effect of upholding important political norms, then I guess I am a fan of the deep state.
"Deep state" is conspiratard nonsense that somehow made its way from the fringe derposphere into the mainstream derposphere. Newt is garbage.
06-15-2017 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patron
Right, the President has the authority to fire the FBI Director. But if he does so corruptly, then that is obstruction of justice. Which is grounds for impeachment (although unsure/doubtful if this R Congress does anything unless poll numbers fall further) and possible indictment (which is an open legal question).
Ok that makes sense. So the letters from the AGs were to give himself the cover for OoJ, but then he blew it the next day in the interview and the tweets.

Working for Trump must be really fun.
06-15-2017 , 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
It's my understanding that the president is allowed to fire the FBI director for any reason, including the one that he refused orders to drop an investigation.

Is that wrong?
It's a technical point distorted to seem like a real point. Sure, the president can technically fire the FBI director for any reason; it's a thing within his power. However, some of those reasons might also constitute obstruction of justice, whether criminal or, if that's not possible (there are informed debates about the issue), then in a way that would be criminal if it could be criminal, which would rise to the level of a high crime or misdemeanor and be impeachable.

It's this kind of narrow, technical point that has led to a string of losses for the travel ban in court. The president has almost plenary power to restrict immigration, but he cannot do so for an improper reason, such as religious discrimination masked as concern for public safety.

People think law is all technicalities, but as often as not there are exceptions when attempts are made to use such technicalities to achieve an improper end. Like you can sell your house and give the money to a friend, but not if you did so to avoid creditors.
06-15-2017 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
The rest of your post goes without saying, but it's this first line I don't get. If they were "fine" on their face, he would've released them immediately. There is zero chance they don't contain things he's terrified of people finding out about.
They are likely embarrassing on their face, but you need to dig another level deeper to find the criminality.
06-15-2017 , 12:59 PM
Is the POTUS immune from criminal charges for here though? If so, is that just for crimes committed while POTUS?

Isn't impeachment really not tied directly to specific crimes and that's part of why there's no punishment other than removal from office that can result? POTUS can be impeached for essentially nothing or perhaps not impeached (or immune from other prosecution) for serious crimes?
06-15-2017 , 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
They are likely embarrassing on their face, but you need to dig another level deeper to find the criminality.
Didn't he basically say during the campaign that it would hurt him politically to release them?
06-15-2017 , 01:10 PM
A stunning 50% of the CEOs, business execs, government officials and academics surveyed at the annual Yale CEO Summit give Trump an "F" for his first 130 days in office.

The survey, released earlier this week, found that another 21% give Trump's performance a "D" so far. Just 1% of the 125 leaders polled awarded the billionaire an "A."

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/15/inve...vey/index.html

Last edited by simplicitus; 06-15-2017 at 01:11 PM. Reason: #deepstate
06-15-2017 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
If, by "deep state", we mean a broad group of decent people, many with extensive experience in government, whose mere existence has the effect of upholding important political norms, then I guess I am a fan of the deep state.
06-15-2017 , 01:29 PM
CEO of Smith Wesson was probably the A rating guy, possibly some coal power company
06-15-2017 , 01:29 PM
06-15-2017 , 01:50 PM
06-15-2017 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namath12
"Deep state" is conspiratard nonsense that somehow made its way from the fringe derposphere into the mainstream derposphere. Newt is garbage.

derposphere is my current favorite word
06-15-2017 , 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
They are likely embarrassing on their face, but you need to dig another level deeper to find the criminality.
To me he doesn't show them for one reason only. He is not anywhere near as wealthy as he likes to portray.

      
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