You have the answer right there: one

Nobody wants to bite on this. Thought it might be a more objective starting point.

I just don't believe this, sorry. But obv there is no way for me to debate it.

If a child is misbehaving badly enough to warrant leaving, it's most likely the lesser of two evils at that point.

A+

I'm ever cognizant of mortality.

The #1 fear I have is death or kidnap of one of my children and having to live in that reality, that constant feeling of loss and guilt. I was relatively neurotic about it when out in public. As was said before itt, no do-overs. In before they're still going to die, you know what I mean.

I know there's been 8-10 times in my life where it's been "where's X?!?!?!?" Never was it my kid but instead was whatever jerkoff friend's or relative's that was yamming it up moments before.

Feels like "everybody cheats on their taxes" type topic; when someone says that they don't, the others scoff.

lol

Think about it in context, not as a black and white statement. Kids who get frustrated, act out, make bad decisions are supposed to be immediately corrected/disciplined. This can include anything from be threats of leaving, yelling, actual hitting is still acceptable to many, public humiliation etc. if you don't do any of these things then you are neglecting your duties.

Not one of us is held to that standard. If I am grumpy from sitting in the car in traffic, sick of being drug around from boring store to boring store by my wife, get cut off by another driver so I have to brake a little, I am allowed by all standards to act inappropriately to express myself. It is not smiled upon, but unless it is completely out of line and much too often, I am not in any danger of be told I will not get something I want later, get yelled at, get physically hit, or be called out in front of a crowd to make a point. That **** never happens to adults. We claim we are teaching kids to act like good adults by treating them completely differently for our own convenience. I'm cool with it but don't pretend it is because you have a great lesson for them and it is the reason they turned out okay. That is mostly them. There are tons of families with kids who act entirely different from each other with the same parents in the same household.

As an example--sharing? Tell kids to always share? Bull****. Adults almost never share if they don't want to. That is to make kids act a way that easy for us.

Do as your told without complaint? Bull****. We don't appreciate that behavior in adults in this society. We like it in kids because it is more convenient, but we all hope our kids will not grow up to be the push overs we want them to be with us.

I'd wager most adults in prison today got plenty of strict "discipline".

Nobody had this **** figured out. Humans are irrational and we trick ourselves into believing we know what we are doing and love to believe ourselves.

I know the post is facetious but gorillas are herbivores.

Kid wasn't getting eaten.

Called my mom to ask about cart in store incident. She said she didn't remember how many items were in it, but that we had just started so it probably wasn't many. She also said she wouldn't have left anything perishable. She also said that whenever we were in the grocery after that, if we saw an unattended cart me and my sister would go "oooh, someones kids must have been bad".

What is bad enough? I would swallow my embarrassment and put the stuff back. A grocery store is not a operating room or the PGA.

Who cares though. I was mostly making a point about how alobar probably turned out fine despite his mom not being perfect, not because she is.

It's beyond the pale to mention it to someone. You're right (I assume that's what you're lol'ing at) that that's prbly true for all negative characteristics.

Very little will get someone more defensive though.

It also used to be less culturally accepted here, or at least less of the norm, and is less culturally accepted elsewhere.

I really did not mean to disparage your mom. Honestly.

Everytime I see an empty shopping cart in a grocery store I'm going to think of your mom.

jkjkjk

Alobar,

And that's how you raise kids into the kind of adults who just **** right by the side of a public trail!

*defecate

Johnny I disagree with a lot of your post but I don't want to derail to that degree.

Ideal parenting avoids hypocrisy though, which is the main strawman that you're destroying. I disagree about things like sharing being a poor thing to teach as well. I adhere to mi casa es su casa, as always, everything within reason. Greed is good is a discussion for another day involving macro topics.

Pavlovian parenting

Alobar,

How much trouble are you in for bothering your mom about this nonsense?

You make great points above, but even tho we want our kids to act in a way that is easier for us, part of that is so they don't grow up to be ****ing dickholes. Sure I go off on my GF and hate sharing and do a lot of things that I would never tolerate from my kid, but most of the examples you gave are how we act around those we are close with as adults which is completely different than how we act around random others in society and that has a lot to do with I believe what we were taught as kids.

I don't think my mom only disciplined me because it made it easier to deal with me but also because me bothering random strangers is just unacceptable behavior in society, same as it is an adult. You think the person with ****ty parents who didnt give a **** if they shared or yelled and screamed in restaurants is just as likely to grow up and be considerate of others as the person who was raised that way? I sure don't.

I don't know what you think I am advocating. I am merely observing the self serving nature of a lot of discipline as opposed to the well thought out "correct way to raise 'em" congrats we love to heap on ourselves.

Using alobar's example again, the narrative is leaving the store that time made them learn their lesson and they never did it again therefore it was the reason that action was taken. It was likely part of it, but other parts are being fed up with the kids, being embarrassed in the store and in actual fact reacting to those things. There are loads of other ways that lesson could have been taught with the same result, and it is not truthful to say that acting out in a store will have consequences when you are an adult until you get to an outrageous level, so yes it is different for kids and adults.

I would likely do the same thing as alomom. I may pull that move one day. I won't be ashamed of it if I do need to but it will be driven by more than ultra wise parenting. That's my only point.

heh, naw I was honestly thinking "yeah that is kinda ****ty just to leave a cart there now that they mention it". So I wanted to know.

It's probably because I was raised so well that I went off the trail to do it instead of just right there in the middle of it!

She was happy to hear from me!

That's what she tells you

I started to reply to each part of your post but held off. Sorry for any vagueness.

well okay. But he listed that as an example in reply to my post that if you leave a setting one time if will have an impact on the future because you've shown that you're not just hot air.

I don't understand the point of 'it's different for kids and adults' - yes, and? They have different roles. It shouldn't be overly different for parents and kids because parents shouldn't be telling kids to act different than themselves ftmp. Otherwise they're hypocrites.

Like any random adult? Ok. That's like saying there's a difference between being self-employed and an employee.

This whole thing was doing it as a one time thing. If your kids are so wild that you have to leave on multiple occasions, sure, that can be a move in your back pocket and I don't see how the acknowledgment of you being human is some counterweight.

Bro. This whole line of conversation is in relation to a kid who got away from his parents and some people claiming they did a great job keeping their kids in sight and in line. I am calling bs on the claims of vast superiority by design. loads of it is luck and loads of the success is despite of what we do, not because of it.

The point of its different for kids is that it illustrates much of the discipline we put on them is for our benefit in not wanting to deal with the behavior right then, not theirs in teaching them how to be good adults.

Yeah I think that's the big take home. I'm above average vigilant and my wife is like a 20 out of 10 when it comes to overbearing and safety. And yet our kid has fallen off **** and banged up his head or gotten into shenanigans multiple times. If I run at like 10th percentile he probably has a broken bone or stitches st this point. If I run at 1st percentile he probably has something far worse. I'm running at 50th or better and doing the best I can to make sure life changing **** doesn't become 10th percentile while recognizing the tradeoffs.

But if something bad happens I'll make sure I ask around to see if I should have "watched him better" or "disciplined him more" if nothing bad happens I'll just feel smug as ****.

How do the perfect parents itt handle this situation?

You are walking around with your 1 and 3 year old. Your 1 year old face plants into the sidewalk and starts crying hysterically. You bend down to comfort him and in that split second, your 3 year old bolts. What do you do?