what gets me is how the young punk/know it all, 'types', who think they KNOW the game/everything, like you talk, actually feel like they 1 million hands and lol online p-(super) (jokerstars?) stuff is the only way

lots of other very talented people exist in this world, unbeknowst to some lol forum people apparently tho. And they all didn't lol degen on offshore online poker sites, which ironically enough are the very ones circle jerking and colluding, or soft playing each other in LIVE events..

are somehow superior to the rest. Truth is poker is a joke, its a literally like game if you spend 10 yrs at, you better know how to mathematically break down a simple 52 divided by 4 deck. And then obv shouldnt be bragging about it, like thats impressive, but lol online poker forums. So the maths a joke, it really isnt rocket science as some say. You have already dum maybe middling society types who are actually playing marginally dumb (intelligence quotient wise) types, and so you naturally have a bunch of middling maybe half way smart people, who get the better of reasonably dumb ones and then feel more superior to the whole lot. Maybe they arent necessarily as 'well rounded' as you think, and often are one-dimensional folks

clearly needs more love

Lolz, Cristos is the man but c'mon. Ive seen him tank in the most ridiculous spots where there is just no possible way tanking for that long is going to increase ur EV more than its going to decrease ur EV in the long run by losing recreational players who simply get bored

Official wpt shot clock rules.

http://wptmedia.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-...ck-Updated.pdf

wow this is great

I do not play slowly. But I also would NOT support a "shot clock" in a typical tournament. I'm not sure I would enter a tournament that included one. I don't think it would be effective at combating the more common and egregious situations that tend to slow tournaments down, and it would punish players in the few situations where it is reasonable to take your time.

There are four general situations where I see players slowing down a tournament:

1.) Players acting very slowly on all decisions in an effort to conceal their decision making process where they have a tough decision and want to be able to take their time.

2.) Players acting somewhat slowly on many decisions because they aren't paying close attention to the game or they have some sort of "ritual" before they act preflop (e.g. positioning their cards a certain way and methodically looking at their hand only when the action is on them).

3.) Players stalling on the bubble or some other payout jump.

4.) Players acting in tempo on almost all of their decisions, but taking a very long time on a small handful of very significant decisions, usually when their tournament life is on the line.

A "shot clock" may or may not help with situation #1. It would set a maximum time for very slow players to act, but these players would still act unduly slowly on most decisions. 30 seconds is way too long to fold preflop. And these player may act even slower with a shot clock, like Cristos is claiming. Moreover, these players are very rare. I've never even played with someone like this, though I am aware of a few prominent examples (Cristos obviously among them. It doesn't make sense to change the rules for everyone just because a very small number of people are abusing them. These known abusers should instead be disciplined or banned.

On the other hand, I've seen situation #2 much more frequently. But a shot clock would do nothing to help this. These players aren't taking 30 seconds to act. They are taking 10 seconds to act on decisions that should take two seconds. But when someone is doing this every hand, this really adds up!

I've also seen situation #3 somewhat commonly. But there's no reason to use a shot clock throughout an entire tournament to combat a situation that only comes up at specific moments with respect to specific players. This can be address by effective use of hand-for-hand or round-for-round rules, or an ad hoc shot clock targeting known abusers.

Finally, I've certainly seen #4, and have been guilty of this myself on a handful of occasions. These situations are very noticeable, because they tend to happen at significant moments. But I don't really think it's a problem. If a player acts quickly on virtually every decision but takes 5 minutes on one decision per day, this doesn't substantially reduce the number of hands people are seeing in a tournament. And on that one most important decision in a player's tournament, they -should- be given time to act and not have to worry about a clock or their hand being suddenly declared dead.

So a shot clock would punish players in situation 4 when they shouldn't be punished, while doing nothing to speed up players in situation 2. And there are much better solutions to the isolated incidents in situations 1 and 3.

I -might- support some sort of "chess clock" because it would target what really causes the game to slow: people taking a medium amount of time when they should be taking a short amount of time (in situations #1 and #2). But I'm not sure how it would be implemented.

This is a lot for dealers to be in control of

It seemed to be managed flawlessly from what I watched of the stream of the Super High Roller event at the Aussie Millions. And it made the broadcast infinitely more enjoyable to watch.

That event did use bonus time chips - each player received two per day, if I'm not mistaken.

There's a lot of 3, 4 and 5-minute hands. I see them in every tournament I play. Most of these hands are occurring at the early and middle stages of the tournament. Each 3-minute hand costs ~1 hand played, 4-min hand cost 1.5 hands, 5-min hand cost 2 hands.

Yes, there's a lot of unnecessary time being wasted with players taking 10 seconds instead 2-3 seconds to fold preflop, but this is going to be difficult to police. Again, I agree this is a problem, but it's harder to fix

The best solution here is simple in theory... A shot clock that changes based on the action.

Preflop, no raise: 15 seconds
Preflop, facing a raise: 30 seconds
Preflop, facing a 3bet: 1 minute
Preflop, facing a 4B+: No shot clock

Post-flop: 1-minute
Post-flop, facing a raise: No shot clock

How do you enforce it? You don't, unless someone is repeatedly violating it, then you call a floor over with a stop watch.

So the guy who zones out for 20 seconds when it's on him, is made aware, and then quickly makes his decision is fine - that happens to everyone occasionally. The guy taking twice as long as he's supposed to on every decision gets the floor called over and you fix it.

I'm all for people getting to take their time on decisions that warrant it, and I do the same. Just act quickly when it's reasonable to act quickly - ie most of the time.

I've played with Cristos, and it's one thing when he tanks 1 minute+ preflop and then raises 7-10x the big blind or whatever, I get what's going on there, although it's annoying. When he tanks a minute+ preflop in an unopened pot and folds, that's ridiculous.

IMO if you want to play a preflop game tree that's 18,000 times more complicated than mine, spend 18,000 times as much time as I have getting most of your preflop decisions memorized. Actually, I play a pretty complicated preflop game tree, so maybe he's only 12,000 times as complicated as me preflop.

The floor should also tell some idiot who is intentionally using the max alloted time as some form or protest if he does that the first time his hand is dead, the second time he's out of the event.

Someone was tanking every hand on the bubble of a random nightly tournament I was in a couple years back. She was also running around the room begging for a chop from the time we had 40 people left down to this point with about 15-20 left, I believe it was a ~100 person tournament because if I recall, eight or nine spots paid.

She was refusing to even look at her cards when it was her turn until she had counted to 10, looked at the clock, counted to 10, positioned her chips, positioned her cards, etc... So we just snap called locks and she'd wait the full 60 seconds and fold.

The floor put her on a 10-second perma clock and it was GLORIOUS to watch her flip out.

We could just do away with the whole thing and say if you waste an inordinate amount of time in more than a few hands within two hours, you get 10-second perma clocked at the TD's discretion.

This is great. I hope that floor got a raise.

I really how this idiot had to make a real decision later on in the tournament and only got 10 seconds for it.

She did, and she folded TT faceup preflop to a single raise because she felt it would be foolish to flip for her 2 big blinds.

Sadly, I busted on the bubble jamming AQ on the button in an unraised pot for like 10 BB and running into AK, she chopped 3 ways after getting all-in for her stack of less than a big blind and running it back up.

#NoJusticeInPoker

Agree with the above posts - but it shouldn't be the floor. It shouldn't be a special exception that requires a senior person to come across.

Just give the dealer a 30 second egg timer and let her turn it over automatically when someone doesn't act "in rhythm".

His preflop gamethree is pretty huge, even if we count suited hands that's 55 times more options per hand than Allan Kessler uses. He must be thinking whether raising 2.3x or 2.35x is ideal a lot of the time.

This is a very good post.

However, your thinly veiled brag is duly noted.

I don't see how your result in the tournament is relevant to this thread. Perhaps it would be something you could include if you started a PG&C.

Nice hashtag though.

Does he go out on dates with AI robots? I heard they love men with massive gametrees.

Arent all preflop decisions solved?

Lmfao, died at this.

Sent from my SM-G900V using 2+2 Forums

Nothing like the trusty double joker branded chainsaw to chop some dead wood off of ones over grown game tree.

Cristos uses a strategy almost noone else uses. He frequently gets into spots he has already thought about, while his opponents see the spot for the first time. His strategy works, because his opponents do not find the right counter to his - in theory - suboptimal strategies in time.

He is against a shotclock? Why?

genius with game tree ITT

What a clown..

Although it would need specialized timers (think chess clocks but not chess clocks):

10 - 15 second time to act each hand plus a several minute timebank. Unused time each hand gets added to your time bank up to a limit....

So you go into your time bank for actions requiring deep thought. And quick action is rewarded somewhat by giving that player more banked time.


Just sayin..