I am no way saying Ivey cheated because obviously there is not enough evidence.

However, if you think about it it would be the perfect crime. If an inside player had some way of seeing other players cards or manipulating the random number generator, what better person would there be to receive these benefits than Ivey. He is regarded by most as the best at most games, so insanely good results would not bring up any suspicions. Also, he probably would be a winning player without cheating so if he did somehow cheat enabling him to double or triple his actual win rate people might not question it. Finally he is smart enough and knows all the games well enough where he would know how to cheat without setting off any major redflags.

irrelevant. negreanu also does sick in tourneys (not as good as ivey but still) and gets crushed online. live donkament success does not necessarily mean you are capable of crushing online, in fact usually they aren't

[ ] soooooo much bitterness towards Ivey in NVG

Had no idea Benyamine crushed like that.

no stud action

lol. this whole thread is pathetic.

- ivey's live results do matter. tournament success, wsop success, tv cash game success, bobby's room success (confirmed by peers) are all pieces of evidence that point to him being the best in the world. this is relevant

- ivey's results on pstars vs full tilt can be explained a million different ways. aside from variance... level of competition. i remember specifically ivey playing a few long sessions hu against fisheye1984 on pstars , who everybody agrees is one of the best hunl players in the world, and ivey lost decidedly..this makes a big impact when you only have 20k hands. on full tilt ivey played guy laliberte, isildur in plo spew-mode, and far inferior competition in mixed/limit games

- is everybody missing the fact that hasu's only piece of out-of-the-ordinary evidence is ivey's aiev. which is just a ludicrious claim that full tilt would rig ivey's all in ev expectation, considering it is the one stat that observers can track.


and obviously full tilt players will be the ones who won or lost the most because they had the most money to spew as it is clear now they could tap player funds. full tilt pushed their pros to play these absurd limits to attract attention. which is a f***ing joke but doesn't make the cards rigged.

Just wanted to add that... FTP didnt have to fix the rng in favor of Ivey or even have him access to the live hole cards for Ivey to still exploit the other players on FTP. As couple of posts have suggested that having access to player hand histories after the hand for future play is just as valuable as being able to see your opponents cards. You don't have to look far for evidence of this nature.... Refer to what Hastings et al managed to do against Isidul...in a very short time no less. Now we would all agree that Ivey is an extremely competent player, no nvgtard like myself or your average poster in this forum is going to be able to capitalize on such information to the same extent as someone likes of P.a., durrr, and numerous other very skilled players.
Few people have pointed out that ivey is dominant live as well all over the world, how could he have won live without cheating. Well by the same token, you can ask yourself the following question... How has the notable one of the most dominant live tournament player... Namely Ivey..done in online tournaments?? It is intriguing to note that discrepancy.
Obv I'm no expert... But I did stay at holiday inn last night. So flame away

Antonius also used to play very actively on smaller networks, such as Prima and Betfair.

If I had to guess who is the biggest winner in online poker, I'd say it's Patrik Antonius. He's over $15M up after January 2007 just with his FTP SNs, and he also played online years before that and also on many other networks. There used to be nosebleed games running regularly even on those smaller networks.

(obviously talking simply about table winnings, true biggest winners in online poker are obviously Scheinbergs, big owners of PartyGaming etc...)

notice how I said live donkament results specifically are irrelevant in the big picture. Obviously, the more $$ he wins (in whatever fashion), supposedly the better a player he is, so that makes it more likely he's just sick good. But how he does in live donkaments makes suchhh a small % difference in terms of indicating how good he actually is. TV cash games/bobbys room rumors mean slightly more, but still are not that convincing/important that he is in actuality an online beast....now testimony from the likes of durrrr/galfond/dangs etc, who have actually played ONLINE with him, THAT is legit and much more indicatory of how good ivey is online than his live success. If you can't understand that then no one can help you. The question is could durrr etc be fooled. No one is insisting ivey scammed everyone, just that circumstances are little confusing/suggestive.

also, your reasoning for RaiseOnce vs ivey's differences in success is simplistic and biased. On FTP he played dwan/galfond HU a good amount, Krantz and other sick players. He's killed galfond supposedly for a lot. Saying "oh he played fisheye" does not mean the competition was that different. I believe the justification/excuse that you're looking for is lack of sample size on stars. lol.

also, no one has brought up specifically rigging AIEV somehow, just overall quality of hands.

so ivey crushed live cash games & cuz he does well in online ppl think ft rigged the games for him?

you guys are reaching...

"does well" lol.

very nice avatar

Also, as far as RaiseOnce being Ivey, do you guys think Ivey would randomly type finnish dribble into chat? I suppose he could have let someone else on the account. A PA/PI shared account would be nasty

Hasu didn't say he believes that happened, he simply said he has considered that there is a tiny possibility that not everything on his matches against Ivey was completely fair. After everything that has happened lately, you can't really blame him for that.

I'm really not into conspiracy theories and I think it's really unlikely, but you'd have to be unbelievably gullible to claim that there's not even the slightest possibility those matches were somehow unfair.

If you were referring to some usual tinfoil hat posts every NVG thread has, then your post is fine, but if you were commenting what hasu said I disagree with you.

What a ****show. NVG is gonna NVG, but hasu, you should have more compelling evidence before publicly throwing around accusations like that.

Also noone has mentioned that Ivey's ownership was in the software side, "Tiltware" division of the company.

Actually lads if the tinfoil guys are saying that he somehow has a tiny edge via 'cheating' that is somehow untrackable then he wouldn't be crushing online. A tiny untrackable edge would not be enough to cover up for all his leaks as a old school live player.

Then again he could be one of the best poker players of all time, which is probably the case.

pretty sure it doesn't

Sure, but unless he's playing on a whole different level than the rest of the best in the world (unlikely since for each individual game there are generally considered to be a few players who are better than him) then he's consistently run insanely good. It's probably true, but it's crazy to think that the best all-round player also happens to run the best for years at a time.

Which MIGHT hold water if he wasnt one of the founding memebers of the site he won all the money on. And wasnt crushing all of the other best "internet" pros in the world by a long shot. Plus, considering all the dishonesty that has come to light since BF, it;s not a stretch at all to think there is something wrong here.

+1

I can only say LOL to people that is saying that Ivey is a cheater. The guy has crushed live tournaments, he has crushed live cash games and obv he is crushing the online scene to. GTFO haters.

Yeh.There is a possibility he could have cheated.

But the facts are there.He has crushed cash games and tournies for the last 15 years.

To be up 20 million online no matter whos site it is is probably normal for him and well withing his abilities. Who knows how much he is up from bobbies over the last 15 years or so.He has what 7 bracelets?? That cant be rigged.Online could but everything directs towards the fact that he is the best player ever and he wins.

Nice job being near the top of the 2-7 list, Enon! Hopefully, you'll be able to get whatever you have left there out, ASAP. Are you surprised that oogee was the biggest loser for this subset of games? Depending on his average stakes he could be running better than -1BB/100 here if he played mostly $1500/$3000. Do you mainly think he was just boned by variance?

Again, I don't think Ivey was cheating but this is just a pathetic post. There are LOTS of players who have crushed live tourneys and cash, and none of them have come even close to doing what PI did. In order for someone to crush live then step into the online domain and crush all the titans of almost every single online game, requires an inhuman level of poker ability. Obv, Ivey seems to have an inhuman ability anyway, but to say it's not a possibility (especially after everything ftp related lately) is just naive.

Add in that possibly the best lhe player in the world thinks Ivey sucked but won because he ran hot, just makes it more suspicious. Harder to run hot enough to win against the best over that many hands.

Also, edit to add that I've seen screenshots of Ivey's HUNL stats and they were just ****ing insane. He was playing in a way that I (and several HSNL friends) thought would make it almost impossible to win against somebody who knows what they're doing. Again, not indicative of cheating since maybe he just soulreads everyone and therefore is able to play that way. Probably worth throwing out there.

this thread is really enlightening

can anyone elaborate on these supposedly crazy HUNL stats of ivey and the supposedly simple adjustments one might make to beat him?