"Best hands you wouldn't call" becomes drastically different in aggressive HU dynamics though. Tom is opening BTN with almost everything, and because of that Jungle is then 3betting some massive %. In this dynamic a lot of the hands you're talking about are worth calling IP. And if Tom wants to be able to call 3bets IP with a bunch of those hands, while still balancing a wide 4bet value range, it makes sense for some of his 4bet bluffs to be as junky as 96o, depending on gameflow and blah blah blah.

e: sorry for strating it up in NVG, HU isn't even my specialty but I can't help but feel overqualified when posters like Bictor Vlom are calling durrrr terrible while having absolutely no idea what's going on

I never called durrrr terrible. I said he was playing badly. I have an idea what is going on, so attributing this bad play as balancing a wide 4bet value range is specious. Sometimes a bad play is a bad play. I always found this exchange to be a rather interesting insight to durrrr's metagame:

"Phil its a standard play"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=591Myl9x4uw

^^ Agreed.

The 'top of your folding range' - is what I think you were referring to - doesn't apply here I'm afraid.

Notice in that clip that Hellmuth said "I wonder if you'll even be around in 5 years time" to Dwan. Well it's been 5 years and he's certainly still around

Phil aint exactly Nostradamus, and yes my Jamie Gold sign was a joke. But since, durrrr rarely talks strat I always found the exchange between him and phil at about the 1:40 mark to be a fascinating insight into the hand and durrrr's game. You are up against Phil Hellmuth, one and done tourny, and the 3rd hand of play. You shove with pocket 10s against a guy who says he'll lay down pocket kings early in a tourny. Just plain bad. Yet you'll have a lot of durrrr fans try to defend it. Cmon, he's made it to the top, but not every play that he makes is good. Or part of a larger level 10 metagame. Sometimes good players make bad plays..............

lol blanko

Obvious troll is obvious. You mention the answer in your own post. It's extremely early in the match and Dwan has a prem hand heads up and he knows Hellmuth is a notorious nit who will fold pocket KK early in a tournament(as you said). They're so deep that Hellmuth wouldn't wanna risk 150 BB on a speculative hand, Dwan likely knows this and why he says it's standard what he did. He ran into the very tip top of Hellmuth's range, most other hands he folds and Dwan takes a sizeable pot. If Hellmuth calls Dwan has decent showdown value even against Hellmuth's upper range calling range there(KQ, AK, AQ) though I suspect Hellmuth may even fold KQ that early, that deep in the tournament.

I don't see how it's NOT standard for a hyper-aggressive player like Dwan to make that move...I don't see what you're not getting.

BTW I'm not advocating that I even understand Durrr's game or how he plays or that I'm even good. But when you watch a QB throw a ball in slow motion replay you kind of understand the mechanics that went into why he threw it where he did. That's what I'm saying by dissecting this Durrrr play.

durrrr analysis cliff notes:

online players --- i understand why durrr shoved TT vs hellmuth there. He has to shove!!!

live nit regulars--- i dont understand why [...] derp derp derp,

fwiw, the next year durrrr admitted that the hand, while probably "standard" against most opponents, was played bad since it was phil hellmuth.

^^ quality posts for a IN RUNNING thread, guys..

Hahahaha, this is gold. Aw man...thanks for the laugh.

Obvious fanboy is obvious. The donk shove that early is ridiculous and an extremely bad play given who your opponent is. I don't see what you're not getting. This is PHIL HELLMUTH! Whats even more interesting is that Hellmuth is actually trying to analyze the hand afterward with durrrr and all durrrr can do is talk over him and interrrupt him with "its a standard play phil". Or "learn to play HUNL". Or challenges him to cash game matches, as he rolls his eyes and looks up in the ceiling. As has been mentioned, durrrr even admitted it was a bad play before their rematch the next year when Hellmuth took him apart ("now that I know Hellmuths game, it was probably a bad play"). I guess he was unaware of Phil Hellmuths game before. Its odd that durrrr can admit its a bad play but his fans can not....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGBlaNZXPQI

Phil folds 90% of the time and the other 5% he calls Durrrr is flipping, the last 5 he's crushed. Fold equity combined with realized equity makes it standard.

As you said, IT'S PHIL HELLMUTH! How many hands do you think PH is calling Durrrr's shove with? AA,KK,QQ? AK, AQ, KQ? What hands do you think PH calls Durrrr with I'm asking you. Is he calling with jacks, maybe. That's borderline given how early it was PH probably would assume he's flipping against Durrrr's range and would likely not take that big risk when he perceives himself to have such an edge on Durrrr.

There's numerous why Durrrr would say it's probably a standard play but against PH it's not. Any one of which could be related to graciousness, humility, results oriented(he had AA) or maybe a metagame level.

Which btw, that's all you are is one big metagame level. gj

That IS the point. Its about understanding your opponent and his ranges within a given situation. Phil hellmuth, one and done tourney, 3rd hand of tourney. Durrrr wants to raise, fine, but no need for the all in shove in that spot. Its a bad play by a good player. It happens. PH could hardly believe it himself. He was all excited, jumping around, and patting himself on the back on the fact he induced the all in. Level 10 metagame by PH. Which btw, that's all you are is one big metagame fail.wp.

Answer my questions. What hands does Phil call an all in there with? That early, that deep? You dodged the question because you know Phil's range is incredibly narrow, he's not calling that shove all that often and Durrrr just ran into the top of his range. That's all.

I won't argue with you anymore!!!! No more insults or derailment of this thread, your trolling has won GG.

PM if you want to discuss this topic further I will not have any more of this in this thread. TA TA

I'll be happy to answer your question without any more insults (2 way street). He has a very narrow range in that spot. But you need to back it up and think thru the entirety of the hand.

ph: call 150
td: raise to 1100
ph: raise to 3600

td: all in 20,000?

When PH re-raises to $3600 what range of hands does he re-raise with here?

If TD re-raises here (without going all in), how often will PH make the call in that spot for 1/3-1/2 his stack, in this spot, this early? JJ or better? QQ or better? KK or better? If TD re raises to 7200 and PH calls or re-raises, durrrr has to know that he ran into the top of his range and his 10s can't be good. The all in was a bad play in this spot given the opponent. I'm not quite sure why anyone wants to argue or defend the all in shove by TD, as he later admits that it was a bad play. So PH says it was a bad play and TD admits it was a bad play. That would seem to confirm that it was a bad play. It happens.

I think the discussion hinges upon Hellmuth's limp/reraising range. I don't think it's very wide tbh, and I think that's why Durrrr thinks his play was poor in retrospect.

STOP TALKING ABOUT THAT STUPID SNG HAND! 67bbs deep pocket 10s, all in. No thought process here. Only thing that makes it bad is that PH is a live pro.

what is hands number/results atm?

jekus,

you a real iron man or just a poser? like the posers i see wearing ironman bike jerseys on road..

U mad bro? Thanks for sharing that analysis with us all.


Agree. What's PH's calling range to a 4bet raise with half his stack on the line in the the third hand of the tournament??? Aces, Kings, and Queens(maybe). On the rematch clip Dwan says "now that I understand his game". That statement implies he didn't understand his game at first.

This. Cripes!!!, If the guy who made the play says it's bad, it's bad. Nuthuggery run amok ITT.

^

+2

torum frolls

durrrs been online ages

jungle where are you