Played MAP last night from 7pm until 2 AM or so. 1/3 NLHE on both games. Pretty enjoyable. Most people had fun. I'd say there were three examples of a player who clearly did not like the game...two of the three people politely deduced the game was not for them and left, and the third was a "grumpy old rock nit" that complains about everything...and I knew the moment he sat down that the first minor mistake that affected him negatively he would flip out and leave...sure enough, minor mistakes that didn't hurt him he wouldn't do anything, and then boom, he got dealt QQ (may have been KK), but dealer made an error and it was a misdeal...KABOOM, whine whine whine, rack up, leave. Knew it was coming...way too predictable.

But yeah, the game pretty much runs smoothly. Anyone who is still skeptical, just try it out one time first, then you can bash it...

The only time you really get a problem, and it happened for us for one half-hour session, was when you got one dealer who was way too passive in trying to keep the game running smoothly and combined that with a dealer in the other game who sat down with a preset attitude of "I hate this, it's a waste of time and its stupid and I'm going to overreact to every small mistake".

That's pretty much the times when the game can fall apart...thankfully, there are only a few fairly bad dealers in regards to passivity (or lack communication skills that results in the same lack of saying a few extra words to help keep things smooth), and only a few dealers with VERY bad attitude and no patience....since each are a very small number of the overall dealer pool, its rare that you get a pairing of doom......but when you do, yeah, that is when all the complaints about the game become reality. It can get UGLY. But I'm not sure a boss wants to bluntly reorganize dealer schedules to avoid a bad pairing on a 1/3 MAP game, and I don't know if you can set dealer schedules from the start of the shift to avoid such a pairing...obvious there is more to dealer schedules then MAP.

And most importantly, the game is not the "shark/reg fest with no tourists or casual players" that people, including me, feared, at least so far. It's actually the tourists who are the ones who seem to enjoy themselves the most and are the most eager to try it out...and the regs who see the game for the first time are more likely to scoff about how dumb the game is. As long as that's the case, then Tim and Aria may have something here.

Or maybe it's just been a few good weeks. Not sure what the required sample size is for "whether a new type of game has staying power"...

Might have been your hat that put them on monkey tilt and they couldnt take it anymore?

Thanks for the report. I want it badly!

If by "never", you mean less than "five every down", then yes. Quite possible you're right, are you a Celtics fan? If so, just DM me on FB, we can chat there.

This will be my last post in this thread, as I'm not at liberty to share all of my opinions, and I seem to be offending people. That wasn't my intent, although I wasn't particularly worried about tip-toeing around the people who were making statements as fact, that were debatable at best, flat out wrong at worst.

** Apologies to Mason, he didn't make it personal, and my comments appear to have been construed as such by others, if not himself. No disrespect, I apologize.

Best wishes,

Looks like a total mess with confusion. Poker will always be a loser for Casinos. This will not change that.

His comments were construed as such by you. You took it personally, were offended, and responded in kind. You got defensive for some reason..
Some of the idiot kids who hang in NVG get their kicks by attacking people. The rest are here to have a good time, learn, and maybe contribute something of value..

Relax.. and everything will be OK.

So poker is a loser at Commerce?

I think banonlinepoker could have used a better word than "loser"

Unfortunately all of us live in a world where poker is not that "relevant" to casino executives. Take a hypothetical medium to large casino that throws off $50M a year of EBITDA. Poker might (emphasize might) contribute 500K of EBITDA at best if run well (p.s. Aria room is run very very well)

So if you are running the casino, where are your priorities? the $45.5M business or the $500K business?

As long as the room doesn't lose money or compete with floor space from more profitable games, then all is usually OK, and casino Execs are happy with the traffic it creates and offering it as sort of an amenity.

p.s. CA Card club market is a different world on many many levels.

I don't think this is correct.

I remeber when Harrahs phila opened poker was like 30% of revenue in the first month. I don't know if u have ever been at borgata but I'm pretty sure they make a decent penny with poker .

Maybe you can post some data instead of just claiming. Now at aria I'm sure poker is very small compared to the rest of the place but there are def other examples of places where poker is actually an important part of the business.

Actually it's a myth that poker doesn't make money for the casinos. It's not a loss leader. If you compare what your average player pays in rake with what your average low stakes player loses at blackjack, the poker player has it worse off. Take someone playing blackjack, making $10 bets (where i play this is very common). They are going to bet maybe $600 over an hour (60 hands, pretty typical for a full table of slow players). They are going to play with an average house edge of 1-1.5% (see Griffin's work for this figure) and lose about $6-$9 an hour in EV. Average poker player definitely loses more than this.

Now of course whales / degenerates who bet heavy are going to lose a lot more. And some people play with a higher disadvantage. But for your average small stakes gambler, and in my experience at the blackjack tables the vast majority of players rarely bet big, it's a myth that casinos make a ton of money from them and nothing from poker players. You guys are as good a cash cow as anyone else.

Ofc higher house edge games, like roulette & slots, or keno (lol) do generate a lot more. But people also understand implicitly that they cannot beat these games. Every poker player thinks he's a genius who can beat the games - and a lot of the strategic writing helps to reinforce these myths - even though only a small fraction of players are long term winners. So this drives them to play longer hours, thinking of it as a part time job, providing more earn for the casinos. Poker isn't a loss leader at all. It's a profit generator. These tables are pulling in $100+ an hr. The card distributing monkeys don't cost much.

So yes i agree that most players who sit down think they are winners. But i actually think that a large percentage are. Online where we have totally unbeatable games 30% of players win. I bet in live casinos its a lot closer to 50% and could even be higher than that. e.g. it is possible that one fish is feeding an entire table.

So do not think that only a small amount of players win. If you compare the poker player to the casino player: the poker player plays all the time for long hours. The casino player plays short times and less often. Of course this is on average.

Trying to start a 2x 1/3 nl right now if anyone is interested.

I'll have some of what you're smoking.

Heh played a guy heads-up in this format a few days ago...

Overall impressions are that it is a total cluster. They could really improve the experience by adding some technology and maybe having the big blind / small blind posters section light-up to indicate it's time to post the blinds.

They should also have the dealers wear a button or something that indicates red/black to help with identifying which flop is with which deck.

I'm in. I tried it the other day. It was awesome. I had 7 railroads and both the boardwalks!!

I agree with you that it looks confusing. It is confusing the first 5 minutes because you have never played 2 buttons before.

I agree playing heads up can be a cluster. Also, when new players sit it takes 20 to 30 minutes to get it going. After players get familiar with the game, it usually runs real smooth and fast after an hour. As for the technology, yes I have to agree it would be great to have a light in front of the players when it's their button and blinds. That is in our 2017 model design.



I have received the first set of numbers. I can not disclose the exact numbers. However, I can tell you that for no limit holdem you get over 50 and under 70 raked hands per hour. Also, the number is trending up as players and dealers become more familiar with the game.


Also, when you play, please please please remember to tip the dealers. It requires them to work more than any other game. We need the dealers support so please support the dealers.

that is pure win right there... why has it taken so long for me to figure this one out!

I love that idea!

Live pros literally make like 10bb/hr which is 30-40bb/100 and rake is anywhere from 5-10x higher than online depending on where and what stakes you play. Probably around 10% are winning players in live poker.

I agree with the under 70 hands.....el oh el at Over 50 hands.......there's no way I believe this number. Also where are you "getting" these numbers from? It's not like someone is there tracking the number of hands.

How about you pay the dealers a better wage. You def make enough from the rake.

I will say that having one deck w/ big font and another w/o was a nice touch.

This is just outstanding and only because " back in the day " my friend Franchise and I would play this and we called it " Clark W Griswald " Monopoly.

We had the boards side by side ( you would move like in a figure eightish pattern ) but we also had this thing where when you roll a "doubles" one of the boards would rotate clockwise. We would alternate back and forth on which boards would move.

It was really wild and a lot of fun!

I still remember rolling doubles and we would both say out load " RO-TATE " and then try to make this sound like a Transformer when hes 'transforming'

Oh wow, I am off to FB to post this photo to him, it will bring back memories and he will flip that people are playing it. Well, not our version, but a double Monopoly none the less.

As for why we called it " Clark W. Griswald " Monopoly, thats because of the whole " I just can't get left " scene from European Vacation.

Awesome!

So first of all your statement of live rake being higher than online is wrong. The opposite is true actually.

The questions of how many players win is a pure function of the rake. So yea your 10% number makes no sense and is probably made up.

I would like to thank everyone who has supported the MAP game. This weekend was great action and the table was pretty much full with a list all weekend.

For those of you in Vegas, we have been running and will be running, a round of each (1 dealer PLO, 1 dealer NLHE) every Monday. We plan on starting at 7 p.m. However, with the response that we have seen the last 2 Mondays, it may start earlier. If your interested in playing 1/2 PLO and 1/2 NLHE then I would advise getting on the list early.

Once again, I truly appreciate those of you who have actually sat down and played MAP.

Thank You
Tim

^That is very cool!

Oh I'm in!
thanks for posting that

You probably don't tip your waitress either do you.